2/2(Tue)Brain Drain and Taiwanese identity (Host:Sherry&Dan)

[Sherry Liao]

Dear YOYOs,

This Tuesday, the meeting topic about 2016 presidential election and current political issues had engendered a lot of discussion. We still have a lot to talk about, so the coming Tuesday we are going to pick some of them for further discussion. In the first session, we will focus on Taiwan’s economic challenges; in the second session, Dan will conduct a debate on Taiwan identity: “Are Taiwanese People Chinese?” Hope you can join us.

Session I:
As Taiwan’s Workers Flock to China, Concerns About Economy Grow
By AUSTIN RAMZY JAN. 13, 2016
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/14/world ... china.html

Q1. What do you think of Taiwan’s brain drain in recent years? Will you choose to work abroad if there are better opportunities overseas? Why or why not?
Q2. What are the main reasons that make Taiwan’s economy plummeted and wage growth stagnated? Do you believe the new government will be able to make a overhaul and help the economy turn the corner?
Q3. If you were the head of state, would you strengthen the relation with China for developing Taiwan’s economy? Or will you do the opposite? What are the reasons for that?

(Please read the following article before you answer question 4)
Chips on their shoulders
Jan 23rd 2016 | SHANGHAI
http://www.economist.com/news/business/ ... 3b12a5e227

Q4. (Optional) Do you believe China will successfully crack the chip market? The incoming president, Tsai Ing-wen of the DPP, declared China’s investments in Taiwan’s chip firms a “very big threat”. What do you think?

Session II:
Debate: Are Taiwanese People Chinese?
Surveys consistently show that most people in Taiwan identify themselves as Taiwanese with only a small percentage considering themselves to be only Chinese. Yet, most people here also would say they belong to the Chinese nation or people. There is much room for debate on this topic, and politics, culture, language and history all enter into the discussion. Below are some articles to help stimulate a lively debate:

Taiwanese identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_identity

How China Lost Taiwan
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/28/opini ... .html?_r=0

Taiwanese’ identity hits record level
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003610092

Chinese or Taiwanese?
http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/0 ... -china.cnn

A comparison of Taiwan and China
https://claudiajean.wordpress.com/a-com ... and-china/

A factual review of Taiwan’s history
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editori ... 2003630930

Is Taiwan Chinese?
https://books.google.com.tw/books?id=-m ... on&f=false

Difference Between Chinese and Taiwanese
(I think Taiwanese will like this description, including that Taiwanese have a more 'loving heart' than Chinese and Taiwanese women have more freedom than Chinese women):
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscel ... taiwanese/

********************************************************************************************************************************************
Agenda:
6:45 ~ 7:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
7:00 ~ 7:10pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
7:10 ~ 7:50pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
7:50 ~ 8:10pm Summarization (20 mins)
8:10 ~ 8:25pm Regrouping / Instruction Giving / Taking a 10 Minutes Break (Intermission)
(Session II)
8:25 ~ 9:25pm Debate (60 mins)
9:25 ~ 9:30pm Concluding Remarks / Announcements ********************************************************************************************************************************************
聚會日期：列於該貼文主題內
聚會時間：當天請準時於 6:45 pm 到達 ~ 約 9:30 pm 左右結束
星期二聚會地點：丹堤濟南店
地址、電話：台北市濟南路三段25號 地圖 (02) 2740-2350
捷運站：板南線 忠孝新生站 3 號出口
走法：出忠孝新生站 3 號出口後，沿著巷子(忠孝東路三段10巷)走約 2 分鐘，到了濟南路口，左轉走約 2 分鐘即可看到。
最低消費： 80 元


注意事項：
1. 與會者請自行列印 Questions for discussion。
2. 與會者請務必先看過演講影片，並仔細想過所有的問題，謝謝合作！

給新朋友的話：
1. 請事先準備 2~3 分鐘的英語自我介紹；會議結束前可能會請你發表 1~2 分鐘的感想。
2. 請事先閱讀文章以及主持人所提的討論問題，並事先寫下自己所欲發表意見的英文。
3. 全程以英語進行，參加者應具備中等英語會話能力，對任一討論問題，能夠以 5 到 10 句英文表達個人見解。
4. 在正式加入之前，可以先來觀摩三次，觀摩者亦須參與討論。正式加入需繳交終身會費 NT$1,000。

[Rock]

Wow! Politics again? We are so breaking the taboo and guidelines of the founding fathers of Yoyo. Great! It sure will be exciting. But, can we have a moderator and timekeeper, please? You know, times flies when you're having fun, and I'm afraid that I'd talk too much and waste your precious time.

[Luis Ko]

yeah, i have got to control myself this time, not to get too excited! actually i've always wanted to be calm but, just couldn't help.. XD

[Rock]

Are they Taiwanese?

Yes, they are. But do they worry that they are not Vietnamese when they go back to their hometown? Would their fellow country people treat them differently because of their new nationality?

[Rock]

In Northern Ireland, national identity is complex and diverse. The three most common identities are British, Northern Irish and Irish. Most people of Protestant background consider themselves British, while a majority of people of Catholic background consider themselves Irish.
People of Northern Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Northern_Ireland

[Kooper]

Wow! Politics again? We are so breaking the taboo and guidelines of the founding fathers of Yoyo. Great! It sure will be exciting. But, can we have a moderator and timekeeper, please? You know, times flies when you're having fun, and I'm afraid that I'd talk too much and waste your precious time.

We just worry you leave too early, not talk to much.

[Kooper]

Talents flow like fluid. By nature they flock to companies, industries, and even countries that offer higher pays, greater opportunities or larger personal stages. Back in the era when Taiwan grew at breakneck speed, the so-called economic miracle, many Taiwanese workers moved back from America with their experiences and advanced skills. They didn’t return home out of patriotism so much as financial attraction. With stagnating salaries and ailing economy over two decades and the economic rise of China, Taiwan has lost its attraction, particularly to white collar skilled workers and cream of recent graduates.

Brain drain is the outcome, not the cause, of Taiwan’s economic woes. As long as Taiwan’s economy has been revitalized and prospered again, the problem will pan out by itself.

[Iris Wu]

What a nice pun, “Chips on their Shoulders”. The title is a nice play on word.
The laundry list of China's efforts in getting into chips design industry looks scary. Everyone knows that selling your technology to China is like raising/helping a wolf, you know someday they are going to bite you, so every developed country has some sort of policies to ban or limit the selling advanced technology there. But the world fortune is shifting, money can make the world go around. China now has even deeper pockets to buy the things they want. They were not very successful in the past because everything was conducted by the central government, now it seems that they have learned the mistake and are willing to let a few more market-minded investment funds to drive the efforts, but these funds are still semi-public (state-backed).

Will they succeed? I see the positive side, Tsinghua Unigroup, a company spun out of Tsinghua University, has stepped out of pure academic comfort zone and acts like a true entrepreneur. (And thinking about our own NTU or Tsinghua in Taiwan or any other prestigious universities, do we have any equivalent entrepreneurship organizations?) But by the same token, my husband thinks chip design house is better to be done by small elite firms. He thinks Tsinghua Unigroup steps into too many fields and too much into the business itself. It's hard for them to focus on the real R&D for the future.
As for the impacts to Taiwan, we can chat more in the meeting. I wonder how people in this island can smooth out the ideology differences and work out a better vision towards the future?

[Rock]

What's the difference between identity and nationality?

[Rock]

Nothing lasts forever.

A new country even bigger than Russia
http://nypost.com/2013/10/26/u-s-eh-uni ... ith-china/

The 51st states of the USA (Taiwan is on the list)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/51st_state

[Luis Ko]

http://yahoonewstalk.tumblr.com/post/13 ... 0%E8%AB%87

https://tw.news.yahoo.com/%E5%8F%B0%E7% ... 40130.html

100 something years ago, a group of people funded a country called Republic of China after a revolution, then they called themselves Chinese. decades later the country had a civil war and the government retreated to an island called Taiwan, and have ruled the island since then. i was born in this island and i hold Republic of China passport now.

if my nationality is Republic of China, what's wrong i call myself a Chinese? and i was born in Taipei and my parents' home town is in Taiwan 埔里, can i call myself a Taiwanese?

when it comes to nationality, and culture and ethnic maybe, depends on how you call it, i'm a Chinese that's no doubt. nonetheless, region-wise i'm a Taiwanese i would say. if people think it's so complicated that's because of Chines language, which makes it the way. often times when we ask people 你哪裡人? we don't mean to ask their nationalities. of course it could be but, normally we just want to know where they are from. so people would just answer where they were born or grew up, such as, 我香港人, 我北京人, 我上海人 etc. we don't normally ask people their nationality in Chinese. if we want to ask, it will be what nationality you are, 你是哪一國人? since English is so different from Chinese, so people are easily confused and the questions are easily twisted i would say. once a person who was born and grew up in Taiwan is asked where they come from, of course they would answer Taiwan. for those who have strong national identity might just interpret the answer as, oh, i'm Taiwanese. furthermore, some people, if not many, might even advocate Taiwanese are not Chinese by the way. guess that's why more and more people in Taiwan are confused about who they are.

if a foreigner ask me where i'm from, i will answer i'm from Taiwan. if they ask me that i'm a Chinese or Taiwanese, i will say both. if they mean to know my nationality, i will say i'm from Republic of China, maybe i will have to explain what the difference is between Republic of China and People Republic of China. anyway, actually, i don't really care. what i dislike is some politicians' demagogic rhetoric. and most important of all is that nationality separates people from each other, which is where conflict stems from i would say~ XD

[Rock]

Absolutely, if everything called China belongs to PRC, then it wouldn't have a problem to claim its sovereignty over the sea,


and the sky, too.


Even a town in the USA?

[Iris Wu]

To be honest, if I had choice, I would not debate on this topic. “Identity” is a tangled subject, as stated in the wiki and some articles, some like to claim “identity” can be purely based on culture, ethnic and ancestry, but in reality, identity is often formed on common social, political and economic experience. I have the similar identity as Luis' and I really don't like to be forced to choose a side for just yes and no on this question.

Many foreigners like to hear Taiwanese debate on this issue. Maybe they think it is good intention to help us be more conscious and more self-awareness, but bluntly speaking, I feel this is premature and it's easier to fall into the trap of separatism. Many Californians like to form an independent sovereign state (country), “State of California”, because they think California holds large economic stake and Californians are very different from many conservative people in inland states. I wonder if Americans would encourage this kind of “identity awareness discussion”?
(Notes: This is a general question to all American friends. I have no intention to offend anyone, especially, Dan, who has been a great friend and mentor to me and YoYo. Maybe I just feel frustrated in dealing with this subject!)

Taiwan has many issues to overcome. Relationship with China is definitely one of the critical tasks. We have tried, either being away from China and being closer to China, but it seems neither worked so far. Personally I don't like to answer this identity question, but I don't know if we need to solve this identity issue before we can move on to accomplish anything?

[Luis Ko]

yeah, i'm also curious about how foreigners describe their own/national identities? what will they call themselves if they are descendants of migrants of other countries, other than the country they hold nationality now? what would a Spanish/French/Italian descendants in America call themselves? what would native Americans call themselves, also Americans or, using their tribe names? do maori people call themselves New Zealanders or Kiwis, or both? according to wiki, "People of the United Kingdom use a number of different terms to describe their national identity and may identify themselves as being British; or as being English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, or Irish;[50] or as being both.[51]"

are the terms people use to describe their own/national identities based on their ethnics or nationalities? what's national identity exactly?



by the way, my English really sucks. it's so hard for me to make questions..

[stephen185]

Debate: Are Taiwanese People Chinese?
This might be a good debate topic if Taiwan had not been suffering from the ideological manipulation by those poloticians for such a long time.