2/2(Tue)Brain Drain and Taiwanese identity (Host:Sherry&Dan)

[Johnie]

It's so pity that I miss this interesting/controversial topic(ha, we can see more msg here than usual), but I'm also afraid I would dispute with someone.
Why do we so care about where we come from or who I am(here I mean identity not big question in our life) that because we are influenced by Confucianism deeply.
Confucius says: if the name is not correct , the words will not ring true. what's about foreigner's thought? Supposedly, they do so as well.

Anyway, many ideas and concepts given all of the above are brilliant, I just wanna to add one point: this argument suffices who of people split up?? My answer is demagogue.
Therefore, why do we dance with them without any benefit.

[Rock]

Hi, Johnie, no excuse. You skipped a class, you need to make it up. Next time you have to work overtime with us in the MRT station. No time no see la!!

One important thing, I believe that everyone who joined our discussion cares about the future of Taiwan. The intentions are all good, only the ideas may be different. Many thanks to our international friends, especially. Without your participation, we wouldn't have the chance to exchange our opinions about it. The atmosphere in the gathering might not be relaxing, or even a bit tense, but we need it.

[Rock]

Don't underestimate yourself, Luis. You are at least on a par, if not better, with him when it comes to personal charisma.

Cool, I'm looking forward to hearing what you would like to say further.

Hi, Kooper, "personal charisma" is not the key word here. And, don't encourage Luis too much, unless you want to join our next postmortem meeting in the MRT station.

[Luis Ko]

haa so nice of you, Kooper. wish you were a girl.. XD



as to my point about the issue, hope I won't disappoint you~ actually I was not going to say too much, since I know it’s useless for those who hold the belief but still haa~ i will start off with the question Why do they so obsess about the notion they are Taiwanese only? Yeah, Rock is good, earthling. Why can’t they are earthlings, Asians, Chinese, and Taiwanese at the same time.. oh~ maybe they can, except Chinese. XD

i think that's the main problem.

I want to say the girl Jenny said it right, those people just got lost! my point is, will this idea do any good to the society and the country that we are living in now? my answer is it’s probably not when taking the reality of the world situation now into consideration. and if the answer is not, why do they still insist Taiwanese identity only? If I, an ordinary person, know that it won’t do any good to the country, why not those who advocate it didn’t know, especially those politicians? Johnie is also right about it I would say, demagoguery plays a big part in it. that's why they got lost. XD

it may be that an Indian who was born in Canada might call themselves Canadians, but not Indians, since they were born as citizens of Canada, Canadians. though a person was born into a German and Czech mixed family in New York America, they might claim they are not German or Czech. instead,they are Americans. however,i doubt if you ask them the question "are you Americans", they will say "no, we are not Americans. we are New Yorkers".

finally, an example here, which is a bit like Iris and Kooper said, for those who think this ideology, i dare call it, is justifiable. most of people know Texas once tried to declare independence but they failed, however, still some Texas people advocate it until now. if one day those Texas people say they were "Texans" but not Americans, don't forget they are still nationals of the United States of America, how other Americans will react to it? and don't forget those who say they are Taiwanese only are still nationals of Republic of China.

by the way, it's true that there was no Chinese in the world before 1644, but it's also true that there was no America before 1776.

ok, i might be wrong. just let's see how the situation will go in twenty, or maybe ten, years time.

anyway, i'm an earthling too, and i'm only a human. yeah, let's have some relaxing topics for the coming yoyo meetings, such as something related to love.. period.

[Kooper]

It's so pity that I miss this interesting/controversial topic(ha, we can see more msg here than usual), but I'm also afraid I would dispute with someone.
Why do we so care about where we come from or who I am(here I mean identity not big question in our life) that because we are influenced by Confucianism deeply. Confucius says: if the name is not correct , the words will not ring true. what's about foreigner's thought? Supposedly, they do so as well.

Anyway, many ideas and concepts given all of the above are brilliant, I just wanna to add one point: this argument suffices who of people split up?? My answer is demagogue. Therefore, why do we dance with them without any benefit.

Hi Johnie, it's really thrilled to see you surface and start to voice your opinions here.

The topic of Taiwanese identity is no doubt worth more discussion and reflection. After all truth does not fear contention; the more the truth is debated the clearer it becomes. Sadly some politicians in Taiwan just exploit this subject out of self-interest rather than good will.

BTW, it's very clever to quote Confucius' statements. We are by no means wise enough to take issue with his thoughts.

[Kooper]

anyway, i'm an earthling too, and i'm only a human. yeah, let's have some relaxing topics for the coming yoyo meetings, such as something related to love.. period.

Seriously, let's talk about love in next meeting!

[Rock]

I wouldn't say someone is lost unless they are asking for directions.

The question from the young lady foreigner, "Why are young people speaking less Taiwanese language but having more Taiwanese identity?" I guess the answer could be: they are not traditional Taiwanese; they are new Taiwanese.

Kooper said that he doubt the depth of "Taiwanese culture". Personally, as a native Taiwanese language speaker and a local resident for 49 years, I don't see the difference between Taiwanese culture and Chinese culture. Even this dialect, the so-called Taiwanese language, is not for Taiwan only-- cross the Taiwan Strait and you see there are more people speaking this language! (I didn't know that the population of Fujian is much larger than Taiwan until just now. )

New Taiwanese are not limited by language, culture, or even history-- they are truly born in Taiwan. The center of their belief is Taiwan. Many of them are well-educated, patriotic, and willing to contribute for this land. The constant pressure from China irritates them, and they believe if everyone on this island stand together and fight, the victory will belong to Taiwan.

I can only guess this much. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Luis Ko]

spot on! i'm not going to correct you, but then again, i was truly born in Taiwan too. however, i'm not irritated.. ok, i know i'm just not that well educated la~

since i have already said "period", guess i shouldn't discuss it here anymore haa~

by the way, of course it's about direction. it's just in a metaphorical way.

[Iris Wu]

Wow! It's one of the busiest/noisiest threads since I joined YoYo (which doesn't seem that long ago! )

We keep saying enough is enough on politics, but we seem to have endless deliberation. No wonder our media is full of political talks. This subject is toxic! People hate it but keep doing it. Am I one of them? Yeah, sorry, I'll shut up after this one! (… I mean I will try... )

I was a bit confused when people brought up Confucius' statement: “The rectification of names is required” on this identity issue, did they agree with it or disagree with it? Confucianism or the Confucian doctrine has been a double-edged sword in Chinese history. Many of his thoughts were used to maintain the autocratic monarchy:

• “Each person has a social standing and a social name. With their social names comes responsibilities and duties. Ruler, minister, father and son all have social names therefore need to fulfill their required social duties of respect (The rectification of names). For example, in the study of Chinese culture a child only speaks when a parent permits them to speak."

I am not sure I want to be framed by this particular Confucian doctrine in resolving my Taiwanese/Chinese identity decision. You don't want to be influenced by any ruling party to fulfill their own political agenda.

OK, I should really stop the political nonsense. Johnie is right, why dancing around without any benefit? I should go back to my original intention: it's an English club, we just treat any subject as an opportunity to study more and practice our language skills by expressing our thoughts from all the aspects. We do appreciate the native speakers who join us and are patient to listen and share their thoughts with us.

[Rock]

Wow! It's one of the busiest/noisiest threads...

We keep saying enough is enough on politics, but we seem to have endless deliberation....

Hi, Iris, you are right. This is a long and busy thread. But, no worry, it's a good thing. A busy thread is better than no thread, isn't it? Besides, the opinions here are peacefully one-sided; no one is fighting anyone . Maybe next time we can have a debate over Confucianism which could be as exciting as politics?

Q1. Was Confucius more an educator or a politician?
Q2. Should education separated from politics?
Q3. Should schools teach sex and religion?

Hey, I'm good. I can totally host a meeting now.

[Luis Ko]

Rock always can offer some questions for us to think about. that's really great~

by the way, Iris is right. thank Dan for preparing the topic, and all the guests who have joined us because of the meeting. i do practice a lot, if it's not in speaking. i would say if it wasn't because of all that, i wouldn't have posted that many on the forum in such a short period of time..