9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris)

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Iris Wu
YOYO member
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註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris)

文章 Iris Wu »

Dear All:

“Pension Tsunami” is a global phenomenon and a policy crisis that many developed and emerging countries are facing. How to defuse “the public pension and social security time bomb” has long been a challenge for governments in the world. Taiwan is no exception. On 9/3, military personnel, public school teachers and civil servants held a massive protest against the pension reforms in Taipei.

When the first pension systems were introduced in the early 20th Century, the average lifespan was only around 50 years old. (https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy/) The life expectancy of most pensioners is much longer today, of course. “One-third of our lifespan! That's how long retirement could last for today's working generation” (https://www.yourwealth.co.uk/features/p ... ng-people/).
The crisis is looming and the fiscal challenge is real. The timetable projecting how long it will take each pension system fund to go bankrupt in Taiwan is as follows:
Pension Systems Going Bankrupt By
  • Military Personnel Pension Fund: By 2019
    Labor Insurance: By 2027
    Public School Teacher Pension: By 2027
    Civil Servant Pension: By 2031
    National Pension Insurance: By 2046
    *** Source: 退撫基金精算報告書 (http://www.fund.gov.tw)
The issue is complicated. There are old rules and procedures and new ones in each pension system, and each system has “social insurance” layer and “pension” layer. Each layer has different contribution rates, year of service rules and earning replacement ratio, etc. On the surface, it does sound unfair, but “a responsible government should never teach one poor group to hate another poor group by identifying the latter as a scapegoat” (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/ ... tfalls.htm).

On the other hand, the issue is serious and hurts social justice and generation justice. “Some younger civil servants have even said they would stop contributing money to the retirement fund, as its imminent bankruptcy means there is little incentive for them to contribute” (Quoted from the previous article as well). “The income replacement ratio of Taiwan’s civil servant pension is currently the highest on Earth, the average monthly pension is at least three to four times higher than that of those in the private sector” (https://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/355037). Regardless of the historical context and causes for the current problems, the reality is that Taiwan's pension system is not sustainable, so it is necessary to make reforms before the funds are completely depleted and everyone suffers more.

Can the reforms take social and generation justice into consideration? Let's see how everyone thinks about this issue on Saturday, 9/24. In the meantime, I think you must have a lot of thoughts regarding this subject either because your family, someone you know or even yourself are more or less related to this issue in some fashion. Would you like to contribute your questions, concerns or stories for our meeting? That should make our discussion more vivid and practical. Thanks!

Reading Materials: Questions for Discussion:
Session I:
  • 1. What are the major issues and problems with Taiwan’s pension and other social security systems?
    2. From social justice and generation justice points of view, do you think these pension systems are fair? Is it fair that civil servants, teachers and military personnel in Taiwan receive such large pensions (as a percentage of their last salaries) and can retire at such an early age?
    3. If pensions weren't so high and the retirement age wasn't so low, would Taiwanese still want to fill jobs as civil servants and public school teachers?
Session II:
  • 4. Why is government in the business of pension policy at all? Should people be more responsible for their retirement life? What government should do to defuse the pension time bomb? How should the government lead and promote a fair and balanced social insurance system?
    5. Should Taiwan raise the retirement age along with the pension contributions by working people to try to restore the health of its pension system?
    6. Should Taiwan allow more immigrants to work and contribute to the pension fund, which means they would have to be allowed to collect pensions when they retire?
    7. How should Taiwan increase its birthrate so it will have more workers to fund pensions in the future?
Optional Reading Materials:
********************************************************************************************************************************************
Agenda:
3:45 ~ 4:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
4:00 ~ 4:10pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
4:10 ~ 4:50pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
4:50 ~ 5:10pm Summarization (20 mins)
5:10 ~ 5:15pm Regrouping / Instruction Giving / Taking a 10 Minutes Break (Intermission)
(Session II)
5:15 ~ 5:55pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
6:00 ~ 6:20pm Summarization (20 mins)
6:20 ~ 6:30pm Concluding Remarks / Announcements ********************************************************************************************************************************************
聚會日期:列於該貼文主題內
聚會時間:請準時 4:00 pm 到 ~ 約 6:30 pm 左右結束
星期六聚會地點:丹堤濟南店
地址、電話:台北市濟南路三段25號 地圖 (02) 2740-2350
捷運站:板南線 忠孝新生站 3 號出口
走法:出忠孝新生站 3 號出口後,沿著巷子(忠孝東路三段10巷)走約 2 分鐘,到了濟南路口,左轉走約 2 分鐘即可看到。
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Laura
YOYO member
文章: 351
註冊時間: 週二 12月 16, 2003 10:28 am

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Laura »

That day you still met us at MRT even though you couldn't attend.

I'd like to present you (former V.P.), Iris with an
Invisible crown of YoYo. :sun: :D :ssmile:

Foreign friend, Dan, we wish you a nice journey in Taiwan! :ssmile:
最後由 Laura 於 週六 9月 24, 2016 6:51 am 編輯,總共編輯了 2 次。
The best teacher is child,
the worst mistake for one is to abandon oneself,
the greatest treasure in the world is love!
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 894
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Iris Wu »

Following is the conversation discussed on YoYo LINE group:

Yvonne:
The reason that I do not quite like the topic is we do not have enough info on all the different vocational pension systems.
Not to mention that the above systems may differ from what the Government is trying to push the citizen account國民年金。
You cannot compare apples and oranges without fooling others or being fooled.

Sorry Iris or rest of you. I don't want to sound like going bananas, actually I hate to see how the Government is trying to carry out a scheme for this. It is not organized at all.

你所不知道的「年金亂改」黑幕!
http://blog.udn.com/mobile/frank002/73481570
http://udn.com/news/story/7338/1953792

國葬18%(陳文茜) http://m.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/a ... 3114806%2F

http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily ... 0%ef%bc%89

http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/politics/br ... ws/1810526

http://www.appledaily.com.tw/realtimene ... 01/940239/

不當黨產委員會預算 約聘人員薪7.3萬、300萬獎金鼓勵檢舉
https://today.line.me/TW/article/347900 ... lBrowser=1

Michael
It's ok, Yvonne, Even though we may have very limited knowledge about this pension issue, we still can discuss it. After all, the nature of our discussion is to practice English, not to debate. There is no winning or losing.

Iris
First, thank Yvonne for your feedback! I will copy all your comments to our forum meeting thread, because they belong there.
Secondly, it's a YoYo discussion topic, not a verdict. People do need to study and freely express their thoughts. Same as any other subjects, Trump vs. Clinton, can we claim we know all the details about them? No. Do we still have opinions about them? Yes.

I honestly believe the "silent majority" are smarter than we thought. They won't take information as their face value only, they do digest, absorb in their own way. It's easy to have small talks, but sometimes we can go beyond that. As long as we don't view it as a political issue, we can freely express our thoughts about the causes from different angles and possible solutions or the roadblocks which you think they are doomed to fail... "Be open-minded" is always something we strive for at YoYo! :)
Thanks!

Sabrina
I agree Yvonne. I didn't read today's data, but base on last time Dan's reference, it seems that he wanted to lead the conclusion to his political position

Yvonne
My apology again for throwing a lot of information on the Group. Thank you, Michael. I know we can always discuss any topics in yoyo's gathering. I also know pension is a good one. However, please always be open-minded to the topic that you are not familiar with. While discussing, don't get emotional. We need to listen even though we may have our personal opinion or prejudice.

Dear Iris, I know you will be a good host. I know I should not throw all the info on the LINE, sorry about that. It is easier to use my mobile at hand, and I don't have a desktop at home. Personally, I am willing to accept reforms on the civil service pension system as long as it justify our devotion and service to the country. However, I may be disappointed again. I don't know the other pension systems like soldiers, teachers, labor workers, farmers, etc. I will be glad to get to know more about how they prepay on job and how much will they get after retirement. Haha, don't forget to be honest to tell members that your retirement is worth it. We all want the society to get better but we are misled by different political parties when they are in power. How I wish that they can respect each party's ideal without sacrificing the majority and progress of our country. Oh no, I am getting too serious here. Show me your teeth and smile. Have a good day!

Please don't mind I have grammar mistakes in my sentences. Hi Sabrina, I am not sure about the topic that Dan hosted. Yet, you feel bad because your opinion is different from others. You will get over it soon.

Yvonne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5GOePe5FRA

Shirley
In my opinion, the host needs bring up something to induce members to talk more. And it is nothing to do with personal affiliation.
Thanks Yvonne to provide the different reference for us to ponder over.
Also thanks Michael to mention the goal of YoYo.

Kooper
Wow. I am blown away. This place has suddenly turned so serious and no longer looks like a "chat room." Honestly I don't mind seeing some serious exchange of opinions here. Just hope nobody take it personal.

Iris
Thanks everyone for your input!
My apology for choosing such a controversial topic for the meeting!

It was MY idea to discuss this subject because I did not quite understand the issue and why the massive protest. I was just very innocently thinking to take this opportunity to study more about it. I guess I am opening a can of worm... :(
I don't know how Dan's meeting was like last time, but I will control the flow to make sure it is not biased (assumed that some people are still showing up...:) )
Ok, Michael, you should take control back for our Word game! :)

Kooper
Hi Iris, I see no problem at all discussing this topic. We all have friends, relatives or even family members who are either teachers, soldiers, policemen, or civil servants or who have been retired from such work. Corruption of any of these pension systems definitely leave the island with upheaval and put many people behind the eight ball. This topic is definitely relevent to us and is worth discussion. The best way to get to know a topic more thoroughly is through discussion. So discussion is a reward in itself, not what consensus we have reached.
Luis Ko
YOYO member
文章: 970
註冊時間: 週三 6月 06, 2007 10:18 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Luis Ko »

wow~ it seems a topic that i don't want to miss.. XD



:lol:
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 894
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Iris Wu »

Luis Ko 寫:wow~ it seems a topic that i don't want to miss.. XD :lol:
Oh, please join us, Luis!
I am afraid if you don't show up, we will end up only having the hosts for the meeting! Haha! :)
Dan
Member
文章: 40
註冊時間: 週四 9月 22, 2016 8:08 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Dan »

Dan
I appreciate the messages. My thought is that pension reform is a pressing issue and people have different viewpoints on how the problem was created and how to solve it. I think it's okay to share our viewpoints and this could make for a healthy and, yes, friendly, debate. :) But I see politics as part of any discussion about pension reform. After all, politics had a lot to do with creating the present situation and politics will definitely be involved in solving it. If I feel the urge to make any provocative statements about politics, I'll try to tone it down. :wink: (But the statements would only be to keep the debate going.) :)

I look forward to the discussion. Hope we have a lot of YoYo members in attendance.
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Rock
YOYO member
文章: 2162
註冊時間: 週三 10月 31, 2007 9:03 am

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Rock »

I dare not to join you guys. I've been receiving the dirty 18% money for more than 20 years. Oh, shame on me!!! I should return the money to everybody, especially the "勞工大眾"。

Hey, wait a minute, if it's really that dirty and easy, why did so few people sign the contract and do the voluntary military service like I did? I'm pretty sure that so many people laughed at me at that time, saying only fools would chose such a difficult way to make a living. Now, after suffering all the hardship, I finally can get the reward, as this country promised me. What's wrong with it? I'm taking advantage of others?

Stop bullying us. We are easy targets, but we are not the reason of the economic recession or the disparity in Taiwan. Don't pick the wrong guys.
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Rock
YOYO member
文章: 2162
註冊時間: 週三 10月 31, 2007 9:03 am

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Rock »

About teachers who is privileged to have the 18% dirty money, there is an old story.

Middle school education used to be valued so much that only the graduates of NTNU could be teachers of junior and senior high schools. The government had this very attractive tuition free policy so many young people from poor families chose it as their life career, not in the hope of making big money, but only a stable job. Their peers, who were not near-sighted, chose NTU, NTHU, or NCTU. Most of them got much better jobs and made much more money when those NTNU fellows became teachers.

According to this website: http://msuvictor.pixnet.net/blog/post/3 ... E%EF%BC%9F

民國62年:新進教師最基本薪資4064;工業受雇員工平 均月薪2257

民國65年:新進教師最基本薪資5720;工業受雇員工平 均月薪4270

民國70年:新進教師最基本薪資12156;工業受雇員工 平均月薪9922

民國75年:新進教師最基本薪資16137;工業受雇員工 平均月薪14272

民國80年:新進教師最基本薪資25456;工業受雇員工 平均月薪25421

由以上資料可看出,教師早年薪資與全國工業受雇員工平均月薪相比並沒有比較低,如果說公教人員早年 辛苦,那是全台灣人都辛苦。

It says that teachers' pay were no lower than the average salary in Taiwan. The problem is: those teachers were NOT average; they were elites. One of my old coworker joined her senior high school reunion, and she found that ALL of her old classmates are much richer than her.

And of course, none of her classmates belongs to the "勞工大眾". They don't think her 18% pension is a big deal, either.

She was so stupid to join that university and the career system. Now she is one of the enemies of the state, and she owes "勞工大眾" an answer for being paid too much.

I don't have that problem, though. My dirty money is from serving the navy, not from being a teacher. But for some unknown reason, some people still think I am with her. What a mistake!
Sabrina Sung
YOYO member
文章: 46
註冊時間: 週三 2月 11, 2004 1:06 pm
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Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Sabrina Sung »

Dear Rock

How dare you are, you betray your age :D
Don't say "Shame on u" You are a great teacher !! I remember when I was kid, I always argued with my parents, but if they yelled me "老師說......" I shut up immediately :mrgreen:

Hi Luis

Back to line groups , you don't miss the messages :lol:
最後由 Sabrina Sung 於 週五 9月 23, 2016 11:39 pm 編輯,總共編輯了 1 次。
Dan
Member
文章: 40
註冊時間: 週四 9月 22, 2016 8:08 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Dan »

Dear Rock,

I'm sure most Taiwanese appreciate your military service to the country, even if some don't agree with the military pension system.

I hope you will attend the discussion tomorrow. You could really liven up the meeting! We need your point of view represented.

Dan
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 894
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Iris Wu »

It seems our society is pretty good at finger-pointng. When things happen, you see both the accusing side and defending side using extreme cases to argue their points which most of time are not the main objectives. People just try to smear each others' reputation and discredit them, and the argument becomes so unproductive and pointless. 18% preferential interest rate program is one of this kind. I just hope people stop playing blame game and so nobody needs to waste time to clear their name or searching all kinds of reasons to defend themselves. I do see the pension crisis is real and needs to be resolved and probably there is no perfect solution. We all need to bite the bullet and get the reforms going.
Luis Ko
YOYO member
文章: 970
註冊時間: 週三 6月 06, 2007 10:18 pm

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Luis Ko »

Iris Wu 寫:
Luis Ko 寫:wow~ it seems a topic that i don't want to miss.. XD :lol:
Oh, please join us, Luis!
I am afraid if you don't show up, we will end up only having the hosts for the meeting! Haha! :)
then again, i'm afraid i probably can't make it.. :drink:
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
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Rock
YOYO member
文章: 2162
註冊時間: 週三 10月 31, 2007 9:03 am

Re: 9/24 (Sat.) Defuse the Pension Time Bomb (Host: Dan/Iris

文章 Rock »

Dan 寫:Dear Rock,

I'm sure most Taiwanese appreciate your military service to the country, even if some don't agree with the military pension system.

Hi, Dan, I'm not sure about it. Military people, especially low ranking officers and soldiers, are lowlife in Taiwan. Actually I was kind of joking when I mentioned my pension. It's only NT.2,000 a month. :lol:
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