6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:Andy)

6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:Andy)

文章Andy » 週二 6月 05, 2018 11:15 pm

Hello! I'm Andy. It's my pleasure to be the host. Let's talk about two topics, China's social credit system and the bias about why you think you’re right, even when you’re wrong.

Session I: Social Credit System
Article: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-so ... ned-2018-4
Video (2:36): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinas-soc ... 018-04-24/

[Excerpt from the article]
The Chinese state is setting up a vast ranking system system that will monitor the behaviour of its enormous population, and rank them all based on their "social credit."

The "social credit system," first announced in 2014, aims to reinforce the idea that "keeping trust is glorious and breaking trust is disgraceful," according to a government document.

The program is due to be fully operational by 2020, but is being piloted for millions of people already. The scheme is mandatory.

At the moment the system is piecemeal — some are run by city councils, others are scored by private tech platforms which hold personal data.

Like private credit scores, a person's social score can move up and down depending on their behaviour. The exact methodology is a secret — but examples of infractions include bad driving, smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online.

1. Banning you from flying or getting the train.
2. Throttling your internet speeds.
3. Banning you (or your kids!) from the best schools.
4. Stopping you getting the best jobs.
5. Keeping you out of the best hotels.
6. Being publicly named as a bad citizen.

[Question]
1. What do you think about the idea to assign a social credit rating to every citizen based on government data regarding their economic and social status?
2. If the social credit system is fair and trustworthy, do people with low scores deserve to be treated the way described in the article and which punishment is the most intolerable?
3. Do you think that the social credit system can encourage good behavior from citizens and make society orderly and regulated, or even can strengthen public morality and private morality?
4. Compared with the strict laws and severe punishment in Singapore, is social credit system better? What are the pros and cons of these two systems?
5. With the advance of technology, especially big data and AI, do you see any presence of similar systems and populace surveillance in other countries? Is there an evil behind the China’s social credit system? Will you worry about your privacy be infringed upon?


Session II: Why you think you’re right, even when you’re wrong

corresponding script: https://www.ted.com/talks/julia_galef_w ... uage=zh-tw

[Excerpt from the video]
"Soldier Mindset"
This is a case of what scientists call "motivated reasoning." It's this phenomenon in which our unconscious motivations, our desires and fears, shape the way we interpret information. Some information, some ideas, feel like our allies. We want them to win. We want to defend them. And other information or ideas are the enemy, and we want to shoot them down. So this is why I call motivated reasoning, "soldier mindset."

"Scout Mindset." It's the drive not to make one idea win or another lose, but just to see what's really there as honestly and accurately as you can, even if it's not pretty or convenient or pleasant.

Why are some people, sometimes at least, able to cut through their own prejudices and biases and motivations and just try to see the facts and the evidence as objectively as they can?

And the answer is emotional. So, just as soldier mindset is rooted in emotions like defensiveness or tribalism, scout mindset is, too. It's just rooted in different emotions. For example, scouts are curious. They're more likely to say they feel pleasure when they learn new information or an itch to solve a puzzle. They're more likely to feel intrigued when they encounter something that contradicts their expectations. Scouts also have different values. They're more likely to say they think it's virtuous to test your own beliefs, and they're less likely to say that someone who changes his mind seems weak. And above all, scouts are grounded, which means their self-worth as a person isn't tied to how right or wrong they are about any particular topic. So they can believe that capital punishment works. If studies come out showing that it doesn't, they can say, "Huh. Looks like I might be wrong. Doesn't mean I'm bad or stupid."

[Question]
1. If you think you are always right, does that mean you think others are wrong?
2. Why do people always need to say they're right and other people are wrong? Do you think we become more stubborn when we get older? Why?
3. People tend to lend more weight to information that supports what we already believe, and less weight to information that contradicts it. Is there anything we can do to avoid such a bias?
4. Why is it so hard to change people’s minds? According to the speech, do you agree that we should develop scout mindset rather than soldier mindset?

********************************************************************************************************************************************
Agenda:
3:45 ~ 4:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
4:00 ~ 4:20pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
4:20 ~ 5:00pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
5:00 ~ 5:20pm Summarization / Regrouping (20 mins)
5:20 ~ 5:30pm Break
(Session II)
5:30 ~ 6:10pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
6:10 ~ 6:30pm Summarization / Concluding Remarks / Announcements (20 mins)
********************************************************************************************************************************************
聚會日期:列於該貼文主題內
聚會時間:當天請準時於 4:00 pm 到達 ~ 約 6:30 pm 左右結束
星期六聚會地點:丹堤濟南店
地址、電話:台北市濟南路三段25號 (02) 2740-2350
捷運站:板南線 忠孝新生站 3 號出口
走法:出忠孝新生站 3 號出口後,沿著巷子(忠孝東路三段10巷)走約 2 分鐘,到了濟南路口,左轉走約 2 分鐘即可看到。
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最後由 Andy 於 週四 6月 07, 2018 6:44 pm 編輯,總共編輯了 4 次。
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Andy » 週三 6月 06, 2018 12:12 am

For serious offenders, some cities force people to repay debts by switching the person’s ringtone, which could begin with the wail of a police siren or the soothing sounds of elevator music, followed by the same stern message:
https://features.marketplace.org/player ... he%20court
“The person you are calling has been listed as a discredited person by the local court. Please urge this person to fulfill his or her legal obligations.”
https://features.marketplace.org/player ... he%20court
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Felicia.Tong » 週四 6月 07, 2018 11:31 am

Concerning the first part: Social Credit System, aftering reading, it sheerly eerie. Big Brother is watching. Unbelievable!!!! OMG!!!
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Gloria Lo » 週四 6月 07, 2018 9:25 pm

The most exciting/terrifying part of this system is that you'll be rewarded or punished unexpectedly. That would be VERY unforgettable~

I personally think that parents who don't cooperate with their children's school, didn't do parenting job properly, should lose a lot of points.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
最後由 Gloria Lo 於 週六 6月 09, 2018 10:06 am 編輯,總共編輯了 1 次。
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Iris Wu » 週五 6月 08, 2018 7:14 am

Technology has advanced so dramatically that it is almost impossible to comprehend its direction and effect. Twenty something years ago, I was just working for a state level bureau of investigation to establish their “wanted person” and “serial killer M.O.” databases, which was actually quite passive in terms of design and application in current standards. Then, I thought about the movie, “Minority Report” starring Tom Cruise, PreCrime police can stop murderers before they act. If the objective and execution are “fair” and “open”, it seems more people are going to benefit from a proactive and preventive system. Think about this, if the data of those phone scammers had been “published”, wouldn't it have saved many victims?

But again, “fairness” and “openness” are not something easy to achieve in certain societies. Once the system becomes a tool to serve certain political agenda, then, we might be better off without it.
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章jay_chang » 週五 6月 08, 2018 5:09 pm

Yes, Iris, this topic also let me think about the Tom Cruise and Colin Farrell's movie "Minority Report". The prophets who have the prediction of the future crime's ability can detect people's criminal attempt through reading their brainwaves. Although the movie release time was in 2002 but explored many "future" scientific moral issues:

Like the Department of Justice agent (Colin Farrell in the movie) said "How can a person be sure that the crime will occur before the suspect has actually committed the crime and arrest he/she in advance ?"
"If what he/she thought is killing someone, but stopped this idea at the very moment, could this be a crime ?"
At the beginning John the chief (Tom Cruise) just don't know how to answer these questions and said "prophets alway right, they never miss it..." until he was predecited as a criminal by these prophets.

and lots of "future" technologies:
Touch screens, multiple windows, techniques such as floating controls and previews and AI, such as we used nowadays.
Maybe the earliest concept that was thought of by the film. So many times we often say that the films are the locomotives that lead the development of science...HaHa

"Minority Report" is also a America drama (TV series), many movies were remade into TV dramas. Like "Limitless" and "Taken" recommond to those who love sci-fi thiller and crime films.

And talk about the crime scene reappears and predict, there are some America dramas I've ever watch before and thought not bad.
<Unforgettable>
(The main actress herself suffers from a disease called Hyperthymesia, as long as everything happened can be clearly remembered. Therefore, the heroine often uses her ability to recall details to find the key to the crime.)

<Criminal Minds>
(I think the most classic criminal TV series. It tells the Behavioral Analysts Unit in FBI headquarters ("BAU") to analyze the most thorny cases (such as serial murders), analyze the psychology of the murderer and commit crimes. Predicted their next movement before the violence happened and assisted the local police in catching the murderer.)

<Intelligence>
(The main actor is a high-tech intelligence operative enhanced with a super-computer microchip in his brain. With this implant, he is the first human ever to be connected directly into the globalized information grid. He can get into any of its data centers and access files in the fight to protect the United States from its enemies.)

<Signal>
(The first and best Korean drama I've ever seen)

What am I writing about, sorry it become a film and drama introduction XDD 8)
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Gloria Lo » 週五 6月 08, 2018 5:46 pm

Jay, (whose idol is Kobe Bryant with 5 mental pillars)

Movies become so intriguing through your introduction.
In terms of that fiction films are the locomotives of future high tech, what you pointed out is that, other than CCTVs everywhere, police with special glasses, big data….. in the future, we also have to handle The Prophets, people with Hyperthymesia, and people with a super-computer microchip in their brains????

Life is way..... too hard for both ordinary people and criminals. :cccry:
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Andy » 週五 6月 08, 2018 8:25 pm

China is implementing a system in some way like the Black Mirror episode “Nosedive”. I really want to discuss this episode in the session II but unfortunately it's too late to change the topic. Anyway, you may think the difference between "social credit system" and "the rating system in Nosedive".

“Nosedive” portrayed a world in which everyone has a personal score based on ratings given to them by the rest of the population – and in which changes to this score can have severe socioeconomic consequences.

Review in Chinese (really interesting :D )
#517【谷阿莫】4分鐘看完替你打分數的人性電視劇《黑鏡3-1》


Review on episode 1 "Nosedive" | Black Mirror
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Kooper » 週六 6月 09, 2018 5:43 am

Felicia.Tong 寫:Concerning the first part: Social Credit System, aftering reading, it sheerly eerie. Big Brother is watching. Unbelievable!!!! OMG!!!

Hi Felicia,
It's good to see you here on the forum again ~~

Like you, the report made my hair stand on end. I now fully understand why the omnipresent surveillance cameras in UK have brought up so much concern and why opponents of the system claim that the monitoring system blatantly infringes human freedom. :shock:
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Kooper » 週六 6月 09, 2018 6:25 am

Hi Iris and Jay,
The social credit system in China also reminded me of the movie “Minority Report.” Guess that makes us the same generation? (^ ^)
This new Chinese security system is essentially a crime preventive network, which judge a person’s potential threat to national safety based on their recorded daily misdemeanors and impose proportionate penalties or constraints before a real crime could take place.

There are at least two controversies over the use of the system; how can we punish a person for wrongdoings that they haven’t committed? Its logic is the same as forbidding a sex offender from fitting back into a community because we are certain they will do it again. A second problem is more on the technical difficulties in execution. There is always errors, or uncertainties, in prediction, even with the help of the cutting-edge AI I believe. That’s, we can at best say the likelihood of someone to commit a certain type of crime is what. In such case, could we put a man behind bars when there is 1% possibility that they could someday become a terrorist and inflict large-scale damages while set a 80% criteria to a potential burglar? Will there be any chance to fairly weigh crimes of various seriousness with proper likelihood? Also, does it implies that we advocate the idea that "it would rather kill one hundred wrongly than miss one by accident"?
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Iris Wu » 週六 6月 09, 2018 7:10 am

Kooper 寫:Hi Iris and Jay,
The social credit system in China also reminded me of the movie “Minority Report.” Guess that makes us the same generation? (^ ^)

I am so glad to be in the same generation with you two, especially with Jay! Haha!

And yes, it's great to see the fresh blood on the forum! Hope to see more from Felicia, Jay and many more new YoYo buddies!
If we had a YoYo "credit system" counting how many posts on the forum, Kooper and Rock would be the best "citizens" of YoYo! :lol:
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Luis Ko » 週六 6月 09, 2018 9:12 am

I don't think the system is a bad idea, though I don't agree with them all, either. XD
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Rock » 週六 6月 09, 2018 11:03 am

Here I am, collecting my good citizen credits. :lol:

@Dr. Jay, Wow! Your English writing ability is amazing. I dare say that you are among the top 5 in this club. Good job.

The credit system, if it's real, has some problems imho.
...
3. Banning you (or your kids!) from the best schools. (What have the kids in the not-so-good schools done wrong?)
4. Stopping you getting the best jobs. (What are the best jobs?)
5. Keeping you out of the best hotels. (Do other guests in the not-five-star hotels deserve it? Are the owners of other hotels criminals, too? )
...
I was about to say "yes" to support the creative credit system until I figured out that I myself don't have the best school education, best jobs and will never stay in best hotels. :shock:
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Rock » 週六 6月 09, 2018 11:11 am

Actually, even
6. Being publicly named as a bad citizen.
doesn't always work. Some people enjoy bad names and get benefits from it.
圖檔
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
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Re: 6/9 (Sat.) Social Credit System / Right or Wrong (Host:A

文章Andy » 週六 6月 09, 2018 9:50 pm

Attendee:
Andy, Gloria, Steve, Leon, Rock, Iris, Kat, David, Toshi, Kooper, Roise, Antonio, Way, John, Ryan, Brian, Summer, Ken, Anne, Luis, Sabrina, Ramesh, Vicky

Newcomers:
Joanne, Holly
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