11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Blithe » 週一 10月 29, 2018 12:41 am

Hi, everyone. I’m Blithe.
This topic is serious, but important.
All of us know that we have to face “death” someday, but “how” to die?
Maybe someone wants to fight until the last minute.
Maybe someone wants to die peacefully and with dignity.
Everyone has their own considerations and choices. We should respect their choices.
But, before you make a decision and face it, all you have to do is to know all the choices you have.
I hope this topic can help you to understand more about DNR(do not resuscitate) and Euthanasia.

What is “DNR”? ↓
(https://www.msdmanuals.com/home/fundame ... dnr-orders)
If you want to read more,↓
(https://www.leighday.co.uk/LeighDay/med ... _final.pdf)

Session 1
1. Did you hear DNR before? How did you know that?
2. Do you have any experiences about signing DNR permit? Can you share that?
3. Do you want to sign DNR now? Why? Or if you are older, will you sign it?
4. In what kind of situation will you sign DNR? (example: terminal cancer or severe heart failure)
5. Let’s assume your family members had the wish to sign DNR, but he/she had not signed it yet. Now he/she has lost consciousness and needs resuscitation due to heart disease. The doctor asks you if you want him/ her to be resuscitated. What will you do?

What is “Euthanasia”? ↓
(https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/182951.php)
傅達仁 went to Switzerland for Euthanasia. ↓
(https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/trad/chinese-news-44383601)

Session 2
1. What’s your opinion about 傅達仁 receiving euthanasia in Switzerland?
2. What kind of people or in what kind of situation is euthanasia acceptable (or unacceptable)?
3. If you suffer from severe pain caused by terminal cancer, wound you like to receive euthanasia?
4. If we will pass a bill to make euthanasia legal, will you support it or against it?

********************************************************************************************************************************************
Agenda:
3:50 ~ 4:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
4:00 ~ 4:20pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
4:20 ~ 5:00pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
5:00 ~ 5:20pm Summarization (20 mins)
5:20 ~ 5:30pm Regrouping / Instruction Giving / Taking a 10 Minutes Break (Intermission)
(Session II)
5:30~ 6:10pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
6:10~ 6:30pm Summarization / Concluding Remarks / Announcements(20 mins)
********************************************************************************************************************************************
聚會日期:列於該貼文主題內
聚會時間:請準時 4:00 pm 到 ~ 約 6:30 pm 左右結束
星期六聚會地點:丹堤濟南店
地址、電話:台北市濟南路三段25號 地圖 (02) 2740-2350
捷運站:板南線 忠孝新生站 3 號出口
走法:出忠孝新生站 3 號出口後,沿著巷子(忠孝東路三段10巷)走約 2 分鐘,到了濟南路口,左轉走約 2 分鐘即可看到。
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最後由 Blithe 於 週五 11月 02, 2018 9:41 pm 編輯,總共編輯了 2 次。
Blithe
YOYO member
 
文章: 2
註冊時間: 週三 10月 24, 2018 8:24 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Luis Ko » 週四 11月 01, 2018 11:59 pm

though the topic is not new to yoyos, to be hosted by a doctor will definitely be deemed new and informative la~ 8)

personally i'm on board with the idea, DNR. here i have a question about it and Q5. if i had signed it, why doctors had to ask an authorized surrogate of mine to make the decision, when i lost my consciousness and needed resuscitation? the DNR should come into play instead of my surrogate, shouldn't it?

hope i will be able to attend the meeting lo~ :ccry:
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
Luis Ko
YOYO member
 
文章: 807
註冊時間: 週三 6月 06, 2007 10:18 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Laura » 週五 11月 02, 2018 8:10 pm

Try my best to attend, and no tear !
The best teacher is child,
the worst mistake for one is to abandon oneself,
the greatest treasure in the world is love!
頭像
Laura
YOYO member
 
文章: 325
註冊時間: 週二 12月 16, 2003 10:28 am

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Kooper » 週五 11月 02, 2018 8:19 pm

I feel that the acceptance of DNR is an irreversible trend, as long as people today value the quality of their last stages of life above its length. The one and only goal of DNR is to bring dying patients back to life, with no consideration for maintaining their decent life quality afterwards. This practice can no longer live up to modern people’s mounting expectations. With abundant choices to select and with the power to exercise our free will, we expect every aspect of the lives to be perfect. That includes how we say goodbye to the world.
Kooper
Vice President
 
文章: 2419
註冊時間: 週三 4月 11, 2007 11:40 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Blithe » 週五 11月 02, 2018 9:28 pm

Luis Ko 寫:though the topic is not new to yoyos, to be hosted by a doctor will definitely be deemed new and informative la~ 8)

personally i'm on board with the idea, DNR. here i have a question about it and Q5. if i had signed it, why doctors had to ask an authorized surrogate of mine to make the decision, when i lost my consciousness and needed resuscitation? the DNR should come into play instead of my surrogate, shouldn't it?

hope i will be able to attend the meeting lo~ :ccry:


Luis, you're right. Patient's wishes should have the priority. I think my Q5 is not good enough. I should revise this question to " Let’s assume your family members had the wish to sign DNR, but he/she had not signed it yet. Now he/she has lost consciousness and needs resuscitation due to heart disease. The doctor asks you if you want him/ her to be resuscitated. What will you do?"
But in clinical practice, we will still ask patient's family and confirm again if resuscitation should be done or not, even the patient had signed DNR before. Because patient's family can "sue" us, but patient himself can't. This this not right, but doctors ask them in order to protecting themselves. (In Taiwan's law, patient's family members still have the right to withdraw the DNR if the patient has lost consciousness.)

Kooper, I agree your points of view. And thank you for your grammar revisal.
Blithe
YOYO member
 
文章: 2
註冊時間: 週三 10月 24, 2018 8:24 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Luis Ko » 週五 11月 02, 2018 11:49 pm

Blithe 寫:
Luis Ko 寫:though the topic is not new to yoyos, to be hosted by a doctor will definitely be deemed new and informative la~ 8)

personally i'm on board with the idea, DNR. here i have a question about it and Q5. if i had signed it, why doctors had to ask an authorized surrogate of mine to make the decision, when i lost my consciousness and needed resuscitation? the DNR should come into play instead of my surrogate, shouldn't it?

hope i will be able to attend the meeting lo~ :ccry:



But in clinical practice, we will still ask patient's family and confirm again if resuscitation should be done or not, even the patient had signed DNR before. Because patient's family can "sue" us, but patient himself can't. This this not right, but doctors ask them in order to protecting themselves. (In Taiwan's law, patient's family members still have the right to withdraw the DNR if the patient has lost consciousness.)




hi, Blithe, i didn't know that's the case. if what you have said is the case then, the original Q5 also makes sense!

thank you for your reply. i have said the meeting will be informative haa~ 8)
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
Luis Ko
YOYO member
 
文章: 807
註冊時間: 週三 6月 06, 2007 10:18 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Luis Ko » 週六 11月 03, 2018 12:30 am

by the way, i think if the government does respect "lives" and really want to promote the idea of DNR then, the law must protect doctors automatically. Doctors should be allowed to follow patients' will accordingly once they know their unconscious patients have signed DNR, which should exempt them from any lawsuits by the members of the patients. and the law should have regulated that doctors have the right to sue them back for making false accusation, i would say, if the case is brought to court. :evil:
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
Luis Ko
YOYO member
 
文章: 807
註冊時間: 週三 6月 06, 2007 10:18 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Iris Wu » 週六 11月 03, 2018 7:42 am

Having accompanied aging parents for the last few years, I’ve seen them in and out of ICU, and I often watched many oldsters helplessly and hopelessly waiting for their final days in the nursing home. It is quite depressing and sometimes heart-wrenching when you saw caretakers inserting the feeding tube or doing phlegm suction, etc. for them.

I think for most people, death is not something we are trying to avoid, but the process, the painful path to that destination. DNR is only one very small part of effort to smooth out the wrinkle, but it is definitely not enough to reduce the suffering, not mention to help live with dignity.

This is another area that technology moves too much ahead of the laws that required to regulate its effect and impact. Laws and ethics simply cannot keep up with the medical advancement that extend our lifespan. There are so many situations that I do not want to sustain my life in this world, but none of the legal paper allows me to execute my wish. We discussed “free will” at the last meeting, and now I am wondering what “free will” we have as a human being? Do we get to choose how and when to come and leave this world?
Iris Wu
YOYO member
 
文章: 604
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Kooper » 週六 11月 03, 2018 10:13 am

Blithe 寫:But in clinical practice, we will still ask patient's family and confirm again if resuscitation should be done or not, even the patient had signed DNR before. Because patient's family can "sue" us, but patient himself can't. This this not right, but doctors ask them in order to protecting themselves. (In Taiwan's law, patient's family members still have the right to withdraw the DNR if the patient has lost consciousness.)

That blew me away. :shock:

I see eye to eye with Luis. Supposedly law should grant signed DNR the same legal effectiveness as written wills. They are overturned only on proven conditions that the documents were signed after patients had lost consciousness or clear mind. It goes without saying that we still have a long way to go with the law.
Kooper
Vice President
 
文章: 2419
註冊時間: 週三 4月 11, 2007 11:40 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Kooper » 週六 11月 03, 2018 10:37 am

Iris Wu 寫:Having accompanied aging parents for the last few years, I’ve seen them in and out of ICU, and I often watched many oldsters helplessly and hopelessly waiting for their final days in the nursing home. It is quite depressing and sometimes heart-wrenching when you saw caretakers inserting the feeding tube or doing phlegm suction, etc. for them.

I think for most people, death is not something we are trying to avoid, but the process, the painful path to that destination. DNR is only one very small part of effort to smooth out the wrinkle, but it is definitely not enough to reduce the suffering, not mention to help live with dignity.

This is another area that technology moves too much ahead of the laws that required to regulate its effect and impact. Laws and ethics simply cannot keep up with the medical advancement that extend our lifespan. There are so many situations that I do not want to sustain my life in this world, but none of the legal paper allows me to execute my wish. We discussed “free will” at the last meeting, and now I am wondering what “free will” we have as a human being? Do we get to choose how and when to come and leave this world?

Dear Iris,

I admire your writing. It walks a delicate line between rationality and sensibility, delivering messages in an interactive tone with the readers. Please accept my kudos. :mrgreen:
Kooper
Vice President
 
文章: 2419
註冊時間: 週三 4月 11, 2007 11:40 pm

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Gloria Lo » 週六 11月 03, 2018 12:54 pm

About session 2, I wanna raise another question,

If your family member suffers from end-stage cancer or serious mental illness, feeling tortured every day, and plans to commit suicide/accept euthanasia/assisted suicide,

a.in the condition of knowing that in advance, will you accept it and agree with it ?
b. in the condition of NOT knowing that in advance, what will you feel rationally and emotionally?
頭像
Gloria Lo
Vice President
 
文章: 317
註冊時間: 週一 2月 04, 2008 7:51 am

Re: 11/3(Sat.) DNR and Euthanasia (Host:Blithe)

文章Kooper » 週四 11月 08, 2018 7:44 pm

Attendees(20): Antonio, Blithe(host), Chris(newcomer), Christine Hsiu, David Jr., Gloria, Iris Wu, Kat, Ken, Kooper, Laura, Light, Luis, Rock, Sabrina, Sally, Steve Cheng, Tashi, Timothy, Way
Kooper
Vice President
 
文章: 2419
註冊時間: 週三 4月 11, 2007 11:40 pm


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