12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: Iris)

12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: Iris)

文章Iris Wu » 週三 12月 18, 2019 2:10 am

I was inspired by the statement posted on YoYo main LINE group the other day by Michael Liu:
“No matter whom you choose to marry, a marriage will always be a mistake. A long-lasting marriage is to make the best of a bad bargain.” (“婚姻怎麼選都是錯,長久的婚姻就是將錯就錯”)
The statement sounds full of wisdom!

But first, let’s narrow down the scope of this discussion. We are excluding adultery, abuse or any kind of serious unethical issues in a relationship. Let’s focus on a normal/ordinary kind of partnership. I am sure some happy couples would challenge this topic, but I think they belong to the “endangered species,” living in heaven! Let’s exclude them, too!

The title of the meeting seems bleak and grim. Are we trying to encourage married couples to jump ship or discourage singles from settling down? Hopefully what we take away from this meeting is the opposite: Be more realistic, well-prepared and resilient to accommodate ourselves to “wrongness”!

Theme Song:
“You will Marry the Wrong Person”: A song by Tom Rosenthal
https://soundcloud.com/tomrosenthal1/you-will-marry-the-wrong-person

Notes:
Marriage/Relationship is a very personal subject. It is even more sensitive than political or religious topics. We can approach this subject from a more general standpoint and share the stories of our relatives, friends and co-workers. And we know all the tales we share are either fiction or stories from our neighbors! :sun:


Suggested Reading and Resources:
    Summary of the speech (“Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person”, Alain de Botton’s Talk at Google Zeitgeist):
    1) None of us will find the right person!
    2) Why?
      a. We are very strange. We are hard to live with. We don’t know (see/hear) our own flaws.
      b. We keep us away from ourselves. We did not spend time with ourselves or talking to our true self.
      c. So we cannot properly relate to others because we don’t truly understand ourselves.
    3) Why love is so tricky?
      a. We don’t want to say “I need you”. We don’t want to admit that deep inside, we are just a small child. We don’t want to show our vulnerability!
      b. We became avoidant. We don’t express ourselves clearly. We don’t reveal our needs to our partner.
      c. We need to learn to love! To love is a skill to learn. It’s not an instinct.
      To love is to have the willingness to interpret someone’s on the surface behavior to unfold some benevolent reasons.
      To love needs to apply charity and generosity of interpretation. The willingness to interpret another’s behavior.
      d. We are bad at recognizing that whoever we love is going to be a perplexing mixture of the good and the bad.
      e. We all have perfectionism tendency:
      “Love is not just admiration of strength. It is also the tolerance for weakness and recognition of ambivalence.”
      f. Childhood experience impacts: We thought we were looking for happiness, but we may be looking for familiarity, sometimes the familiar suffers, too!
      We rejected the “right persons” who cannot give us the same sufferings we were familiar with, and we want this kind of suffering, too!
      g. We believe love is a right for us only when our partner knows what we need and how we feel without saying!
      h. Because the belief, it leads to “sulking”  a method we use constantly to ‘silently protest” or demand what we want without clearly explain/communicate it!
    4) Solutions:
      a. We are all incompatible: Love is to accommodate each other(‘s incompatibility)!
      b. Learn to teach: We should learn to communicate what we want/how we feel, to teach our partner about that, but not in a way to make them small (criticize)!
      c. On receiving side: we need to learn that when our partner tries to “teach/tell” us something, it’s not attacking us!
      d. Negotiate our perfectionism: We should accept “good-enough”! We cannot have both “Perfection and company”. We need to accept the need to negotiate imperfection on daily basis!
      e. Forget about changing ourselves (our types/personality/characteristics)! It’s impossible.
      f. What we can do is to change how you characteristically respond to your tricky types!
      g. We should recognize an ability of compromise. “Compromise” is a great trait, nothing wrong with it.
      h. We are just humans! “Don’t berate yourself for doing what humans do.”
Session I: Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person?
1) Do you think you are easy to get along and easy to live with (for a long-term relationship)? Why or why not?

2) Do you think most people knew their partner well enough when they decided to get married? Why?

3) What are the reasons for couples to get married? Any examples for the “right reasons” and “wrong reasons”?

4) The author said we often rejected “certain candidates for marriage not because they are wrong but because they are too right— too balanced, mature, understanding and reliable… such rightness feels foreign.” Do you agree with the statement? Any experience/stories to share?

5) Do most people marry to make a nice feeling permanent? Is there anything wrong with this expectation?


Session II: Self-awareness, Boundaries, and Negotiating Skills in a relationship
1) Self-awareness: “In order to make a partnership work, you have to get to know yourself better.”
    1.1) What does Self-awareness include?
    1.2) How much do you understand your own identity, character, values, needs, desires, and beliefs?
    1.3) Why is it hard to communicate these to your significant other/your family? What are the consequences?
2) Boundaries: “The Secret to Happy Marriage Is Boundaries: Relationships are difficult, and without meaningful boundaries, you could end up giving or taking too much.”
    2.1) What are your bottom lines/boundaries in an ideal relationship? (e.g. your cooperation level to fussy demands, your freedom to certain things?)
    2.2) Please share any stories that you know of a bad marriage which was affected by boundary issues.
3) Negotiation: “The person who is best suited to us is not the person who shares our every taste (they don't exist), but the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently; the person who is good at disagreement.”
    3.1) How do you and your partner deal with “disagreement”? What could be improved?
    3.2) Who do you know is the ideal person who can “negotiate differences intelligently”? How do they achieve that?
4) What is your conclusion for accommodating ourselves to “wrongness” of a marriage? What is your take-away for a lasting marriage?

****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Meeting Agenda:
6:45 ~ 7:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
7:00 ~ 7:10pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
7:10 ~ 7:50pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
7:50 ~ 8:10pm Summarization (20 mins)
8:10 ~ 8:25pm Regrouping / Instruction Giving / Taking a 10 Minutes Break (Intermission)
(Session II)
8:25 ~ 9:05pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
9:05 ~ 9:25pm Summarization (20 mins)
9:25 ~ 9:30pm Concluding Remarks / Announcements ****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Leon » 週三 12月 18, 2019 9:20 am

I think the statement "“No matter whom you choose to marry, a marriage will always be a mistake" is originated from Stephen.
He mentioned it in one YOYO meeting.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Iris Wu » 週三 12月 18, 2019 11:23 am

Leon 寫:I think the statement "“No matter whom you choose to marry, a marriage will always be a mistake" is originated from Stephen.
He mentioned it in one YOYO meeting.

Maybe you are right, Leon, Stephen is the prophet of YoYo. He might have said this "prophecy" long ago. :)
What I quoted was from Michael's post on 12/1, a line from a Chinese movie according to Michael. Whoever said the statements are wise, that's for sure!
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Iris Wu » 週三 12月 18, 2019 11:25 am

Michael, the author made some points in the first two paragraphs:
1) As long as we don't get close to others, we are normally OK.
2) When we are with the people who are not close to us, we are fine.
3) When a casual (not so deep) relationship gets on our nerves, we escape.
4) With friends, nobody would go to great lengths to “lecture/educate” us (like our spouse does to annoy us.)

So, “One of the privileges of being on our own is therefore the sincere impression that we are really quite easy to live with.”
I think it means:
When we are alone (not in a marriage or serious relationship), we are immune from being difficult to deal with, and because we have never been truly tested, it’s so naturally to think we are easy to get along/live with.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Luis Ko » 週三 12月 18, 2019 9:55 pm

like i have said i'm really interested in why you will marry the wrong person but, what i'm going to say is it doesn't have to be the case for everyone. my interpretation of this question is that it's just trying to tell us what the reasons might be if people happen to end up marrying a wrong person. if we can know more about what make a person wrong in a marriage, and learn a lesson or two from other people's experiences as well then, probably we won't marry the wrong person. we still have to think positively sometimes, even if it's not right inside a marriage, right? all in all, to come to the meeting is definitely the first right step toward a good relationship lo~ 8)
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Iris Wu » 週四 12月 19, 2019 4:11 am

Hi, Luis and all those who are interested in spending the Christmas Eve supporting this meeting:
I changed all the questions in the first session to address the question, "Why we will marry the wrong person?" :)

I think the author did try to tell us that most of us will marry the WRONG person, or at least FEEL that way at some point of time in their marriage.
And the reasons he gave are practical, such as:
1) we don't really understand ourselves, and
2) we don't truly understand our partner either even when we are ready to make long-term commitment.
In addition,
3) we are likely to get married for the "wrong" reasons, such as trying to avoid loneliness, or because of social status, family pressure or illusion of permanent nice feelings and expectation, etc.
4) One more thing he mentioned but I don't quite understand either is that he thinks we tend to reject some candidates, not because they are wrong, but because they are "too right".
I am curious if anyone has any experience/stories to share on this one? Is it true that we reject people who are "too right" for us, and so we end up with a "wrong" guy? :)
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Michael-liu » 週四 12月 19, 2019 2:33 pm

About "we tend to reject some candidates because they are too right"

In my life, I ever had two candidates who were young and beautiful and I had a good chance to develop a serious relationship with them. However, at the time I felt I was much older than them and I was not good looking, so I got cold feet and I felt I didn't deserve to them. It was not I "rejected" them, I just did not have the courage to go further and asked them to be my girl friends.

I am not sure if my experiences fit the situation the author said.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Michael-liu » 週四 12月 19, 2019 5:55 pm

Leon 寫:I think the statement "“No matter whom you choose to marry, a marriage will always be a mistake" is originated from Stephen.
He mentioned it in one YOYO meeting.


I already confirmed with Stephen. Yes, Stephen told us this sentence in one of yo yo meetings long time ago. I thought I saw it on the Internet. My memory did not serve me right. Thank Leon for pointing it out.

I am sorry. I did not mean to steal credit from Stephen.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章stephen185 » 週四 12月 19, 2019 11:13 pm

Michael-liu 寫:I already confirmed with Stephen. Yes, Stephen told us this sentence in one of yo yo meetings long time ago. I thought I saw it on the Internet. My memory did not serve me right. Thank Leon for pointing it out.

I am sorry. I did not mean to steal credit from Stephen.

Dear Michael, frankly speaking, I only have a blurred memory of it. And I might be also sharing something I learned from somewhere at that time. So, I think we just happened to see something we both consider so thought-provoking. :)
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Luis Ko » 週五 12月 20, 2019 11:40 pm

Iris Wu 寫:4) One more thing he mentioned but I don't quite understand either is that he thinks we tend to reject some candidates, not because they are wrong, but because they are "too right".


guess you guys might find the answer from the topic i hosted on 8/27, which is also a speech from Alain de botton, if i don't get the content wrong and, my memory serves me right lo~ :lol:
i might be a cynic and, a sceptic as well but, i'm definitely not a bad person!!
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Janice Wang » 週六 12月 21, 2019 6:37 pm

In looking at the introduction, I think I should be excluded from the discussion as I am one of the rare ones categorized as “endangered species” — living heaven on earth as a happy couple. This statement is purely one-sided. The statement coming from my significant other will probably be the polar opposite involving a four-letter word that starts with “H” as well.  
 
Once whilst dating, we were talking about “why me”? My then-boyfriend now- husband said “我不入地獄,誰入地獄”! Such an intrepid martyr-like remark that demonstrates that he is fully aware of whom he is dealing with and also well prepared for what is ahead of him down the road. As for me, the answer to “why him?” is that I chose him not because of who he is but because of who I am when I am with him! For a woman like me, who is not qualified to play “hard to get”, it is impossible to miss out on walking down the aisle with him.
 
Many researches insist on looking for integrity, honesty, loyalty, maturity, and emotional stability in a potential partner—far above good looks and wealth, and if we are lucky enough to attract someone with those precious traits, it’s better not to let the one slip through our grasps as it will already greatly reduce the possibility of a divorce. However, when it comes to real life, some cases around us show that, in addition to the above, goals, habits, priorities, hobbies and attitude towards people around us, e.g. in-laws and kids, also contribute a great deal to a negative outcome. 
 
For a marriage to last is one thing, to remain happily married is another. First and foremost, we need to recognize that there will be periods of intense stress, non-romantic moments and emotional downturn; in particular, when life gets tough. Expecting our significant other to be on the same wavelength at all times might be too demanding but to be on the same page is absolutely welcoming and to be in the same boat is outright indisputable.

As a self-proclaimed happy couple, marriage to me is like dancing, and I love dancing— to dance to its tune, I’ve come to realize when to keep my feet on the ground while confronting self-awareness, demarcate boundaries to one or two critical ones for the sake of not limiting myself and always remembering the option of compromising while in negotiation. Last but not least, open communication is the key to avoid strained relationship and prevent it from festering into an acrimonious one.
最後由 Janice Wang 於 週日 12月 22, 2019 10:23 pm 編輯,總共編輯了 1 次。
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Iris Wu » 週日 12月 22, 2019 9:06 pm

Michael-liu 寫:About "we tend to reject some candidates because they are too right"

In my life, I ever had two candidates who were young and beautiful and I had a good chance to develop a serious relationship with them. However, at the time I felt I was much older than them and I was not good looking, so I got cold feet and I felt I didn't deserve to them. It was not I "rejected" them, I just did not have the courage to go further and asked them to be my girl friends.

I am not sure if my experiences fit the situation the author said.

It may be one of the cases.
I guess there are multiple fundamental issues in Mr. de Botton's argument:
1) What is "too right"? Is it in "right" category or in "wrong" category? Is "too right" better than "wrong"?
2) We will never know the one we passed would be right or too right. There is no way to prove it. And the human nature tends to think "whatever we do/can not own is always sweeter (than what we currently possess)."

So, it seems easier for us to conclude that the candidates that we bypassed would have been "right" or "better" for us.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Iris Wu » 週二 12月 24, 2019 12:14 pm

Luis Ko 寫:
Iris Wu 寫:4) One more thing he mentioned but I don't quite understand either is that he thinks we tend to reject some candidates, not because they are wrong, but because they are "too right".

guess you guys might find the answer from the topic i hosted on 8/27, which is also a speech from Alain de botton, if i don't get the content wrong and, my memory serves me right lo~ :lol:

I missed your meeting on 8/27 because of my traveling!
Right, Alain de Botton made similar arguments on Love in these speeches. Do you think the reason is the childhood impacts that he mentioned make us searching for the familiarity feelings, including the feelings of suffering? So we are not necessarily looking for happiness, we are searching for the familiarity, including someone who can give us the same suffering?
To be honest, I still don't quite understand this argument. I would run away from it and I won't embrace it or look for similar sufferings, unless everything happens unconsciously.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Iris Wu » 週二 12月 24, 2019 12:39 pm

Janice Wang 寫:In looking at the introduction, I think I should be excluded from the discussion as I am one of the rare ones categorized as “endangered species” — living heaven on earth as a happy couple.

Thanks for the wonderful comments, Janice!
You are right, when I put that exclusion statement, I was thinking about you! :)

Right, a healthy marriage requires open communication as we all know. But self-awareness is the precursor for communication because we can only convey effectively what we know. If talks do not work well, boundaries come in place, but still there are many details to be synchronized. I think the hardest one is the value systems. If the core values need to be compromised, then it will be very challenging to make the best out of the marriage.
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Re: 12/24(Tue.) Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Host: I

文章Christine » 週二 12月 24, 2019 5:20 pm

Dear all,

Following is the material regarding the discussion of tonight which Tim Armantrout would like to share with everyone.
Thanks for the sharing from Tim. FYI.

Guidelines for Developing Self-Awareness & Good Relationships
“He who knows others is wise; he who knows himself is enlightened.” ― Lao Tzu

Be Impeccable With Your Thoughts
Think & speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to think or speak against yourself
or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.
 Your inner wisdom (God-Consciousness) is your teacher.
 Nothing outside of you can ever bring you lasting fulfillment.
 You are perfect.
 Everything is perfect for its purpose.
 Everyone is right in his or her own perspective.
 Life is a mirror.
 You are how you define what you see.
 Learn to appreciate your own uniqueness.
 Learn to appreciate the uniqueness of others.

Stop Taking Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own
dream. When you are free of the opinions and actions of others, you will be free from needless suffering.
 Nothing that others say or do is ever personal.
 Nothing anyone ever says or does is because of you.
 Others cannot emotionally hurt you unless you allow yourself to be hurt.
 You are only responsible for your own thoughts, feelings, and actions.
 Others are only responsible for their own thoughts, feelings, and actions.
 You cannot control how others think or feel about you.
 How others think or feel about you reflects their own beliefs about themselves.

Stop Making Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as
you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely
transform your life.
 Your interpretation of another's behavior is never what it really is.
 Reality is always kinder than the story you tell about it.
 When you argue with reality (with should, ought to, or have to), you lose 10
 Ask, ask, ask, LISTEN, and then trust your inner wisdom.
 Each thought is as valid as another.
 Do not assume others view life the way you do.
 Do not assume others think or feel the way you do.
 Do not assume others know what you are thinking or feeling.
 Be clear about your intentions before questioning another's motives.

Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to
sick. Get rid of the shoulds and could haves. Under any circumstance, simply do your best and let the rest go.
 Your own thinking creates how you feel.
 You can change how you feel by changing your thinking.
 Feelings are your body's way of showing you what you are thinking.
 You have the power to undo the beliefs that limit you.
 There is a divine plan, a reason for everything.
 Everything happens according to divine order and divine timing.
 Trust in the rhythm and flow of Life.
 There is only love, the rest is an illusion.

Inspired by "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz and "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie
“He who knows others is wise; he who knows himself is enlightened.” ― Lao Tzu
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