9/1 (Tue) Changing your story (Host: Holly)

[hollywang1991]

Hi YoYo members,

Please watch this TED Talk from Lori Gottlieb for session one. https://www.ted.com/talks/lori_gottlieb ... _your_life

SESSION I
1. How would you react if you hear a stroy like this? What do you usually think/say?
"Dear Therapist, I've been married for 10 years and things were good until a couple of years ago. That's when my husband stopped wanting to have sex as much, and now we barely have sex at all.Well, last night I discovered that for the past few months, he's been secretly having long, late-night phone calls with a woman at his office. I googled her, and she's gorgeous. I can't believe this is happening. My father had an affair with a coworker when I was young and it broke our family apart. Needless to say, I'm devastated. If I stay in this marriage, I'll never be able to trust my husband again. But I don't want to put our kids through a divorce, stepmom situation, etc. What should I do?"

2. Ms. Gottlieb said that we are all unreliable narrators of our own lives. We assume that our circumstances shape our stories, but she found in her work that exact opposite happens. What do you think?

3. Ms. Gottlieb said that the people stuck in the story they don't like is because change can also lead a great amount of loss of familiar. Do you have similar experience or think of anything related?

4. Do you know some people who are help-rejecting complainers? (I bet you do) Or probably somehow you are help-rejecting complainer and quite enjoying the stuckness?

SESSION II
For session II, we will talk about how do you think of "seeing a therapist".And we probably will be more focusing on the talking cure not other types of therapies.

Talking cure.jpg

In this session, we need a certain degree of self exposure, if you are not sure about letting people know your private life/struggles, please feel free to let your group members know you are not ready to talk about it. It's all good, don't worry!

Some reasons why you can benefit from therapy:
-It helps make the good things in your life great.
-It can help you express yourself in a healthy way.
-It can teach you how to talk about uncomfortable things.
-It can help you identify personal patterns.
Those are from https://www.insider.com/can-i-go-to-the ... r-corner-9. I only choose some point I feel relatable to my own situation.

1. What do you think and how do you feel if someone you are not that familiar with tells you that she/he is seeing a therapist. What if your loved one tells you he/she is seeing a therapist? Any difference on how you take it?

2. Have you ever thought to seek professional help when life doesn't treat you well or you simply want to know more about yourself? If not, you may share your opinions on how do you think therapy is.

3. By inditifying personal patterns, I think it's a great way to know more about yourself and have a flexible life style.What do you think? What are your patterns? Would you like to have some changes or feel more secure and comfort staying as it is.

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Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist and also the author of "Maybe you should talk to someone". It's an interesting book with Ms. Gottlieb's career as phychotherapist and her personal life. It's worth a read
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Agenda:
6:45 ~ 7:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
7:00 ~ 7:10pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
7:10 ~ 7:50pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
7:50 ~ 8:10pm Summarization (20 mins)
8:10 ~ 8:15pm Regrouping / Instruction Giving / Taking a 10 Minutes Break (Intermission)
(Session II)
8:15 ~ 8:55pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
9:00 ~ 9:20pm Summarization (20 mins)
9:20 ~ 9:30pm Concluding Remarks / Announcements

Meeting Date: As shown on the Subject Line
Meeting Time: 7:00pm – 9:30pm
Meeting Venue: 丹堤咖啡 Dante Coffee (Minimum Order $80)
Address: 台北市濟南路三段25號[MAP]-捷運忠孝新生站3號出口步行3分鐘

Important Notes:
1. We advise participants to print out the discussion questions and bring them to the meeting for reference. As for the supporting articles, feel free to print them out, as well, according to your preference.
2. We suggest that participants read the articles and think about the questions in advance.
3. Newcomers should prepare a two-to-three minute self-introduction in English to deliver when called upon by the host before the start of the discussion. The host may also ask you to give brief feedback about the meeting at the conclusion of the meeting.
4. We conduct the entire meeting in English. All participants should have at least moderate English-conversation skills and be able to articulate your ideas for each discussion question.
5. We welcome newcomers and other guests to attend the meetings and join the discussion freely for three times. After that, we hope you will consider becoming a YoYo English Club member. We charge a NT$1000 lifetime membership fee.

[Luis Ko]

Wow~ this is really a difficult topic to discuss. Just like the speaker says, we are all unreliable narrators..

then again, i don't really get the speaker's point so, for not being "ultracrepidarian" i am looking forward to hearing you guys opinions about it instead lo~

[Janice Wang]

My reaction to the story of QW-I1 hinges on how close the relationship I have with the protagonist. As an outsider, listening is often the only thing needed to help someone in relationship issues. However, it is hard not to snap either in the role of a confidante to the protagonist or just as a neutral female reader, even though it’s a one-sided story.

In the speech, the speaker points out what makes us unreliable narrators of our own lives is that we are used to being tethered to a moral stance. We live in a culture driven by expectations - some even evolved into beliefs we don’t dare to question or challenge. We somehow subconsciously present a narration to cater to the deep-rooted beliefs or delusionally expect the modified story to beat the drum for everyone and everything. From a positive point of view, one has to practice what he preaches until the greatest awakening comes!

Like many people, I have never come across anyone that ever shared their experiences of seeing a therapist. I think most people would prefer to keep it private unless one feels comfortable enough to reveal the information. However, it is a very familiar scene in so many movies and tv shows. Most of them go to therapy to seek help for problematic relationships–no matter with their partners or with themselves. Some people are much more open to their pain or problems, and some counseling seems to just be going through the motions. Seeing a therapist is a monetary and spiritual investment, also a time-consuming process, and may never pay off. However, undoubtedly, it is a desperate cry for help for those who are severely mentally ill.

[Michael-liu]

This topic is another one related to self-improvement. Haha......

As we all know, seeing a therapist is expensive, and our income level is not as high as thoese westerners. So most of us probably can not afford it. I am going to tell you an alternative and free-of-charge way for counseling, which I tried and it really helped in some issues of my marriage.

There are some popular discussion forums on Internet with all kinds of topics, including "marriage" or "relationship". You can tell your story or issue there, and many people will respond your post and you can reply back and forth. It is just like a therapy session.

Since these people who respond to your complain are total strangers to you, some of them will not give you "idiot compassion", as the speaker points out. They will criticise you based on your story with mean words like hitting the nail on your head. It really made me reflect on myself and realize my own problems in my marriage.

You won't get this kind of sharp and harsh advice from your friends, because your friends are afraid you will hate them. This is exactly the "truth bomb" we need, but not the "compassionate" kind, as the speaker said. This might even work better than seeing a therapist, but the key point is being open-minded with the criticism and not get irritated.

Moreover, I happen to sometimes use the "we all gonna die" method, as the speaker points out. When we get upset, angry, frustrated, depressed....etc, just tell ourself "we all gonna die", then any problem is not a problem anymore!

I found there is Chinese translation of the book Holly recommended, 《也許你該找人聊聊》, and many readers left very positive comments. It must be a worth read! (Maybe our book reading club can choose this one, haha... )

[Rock]

This woman needs help. She knows what to do, but she can't make the decisions. I can imagine she is typically that kind of "help-rejecting complainers". If she is a catholic, then it's easy, she just talks to a father and follows his guidance.

What would the catholic father tell her? Would he tell her, "Freedom comes with responsibility. And if we take responsibility for our role in the story, we might just have to change."? Not likely. As you can see, this woman is weak, she is helpless. She is seeking solid, step by step guidance, not education of "taking your own responsibility".

Here are the step by step guidance a catholic father would give. (In my imagination)
1. Tell your husband to come here. I will have a talk with him.
2. Your husband just confessed. He doesn't love you anymore. You've got to divorce, in the name of God. (Is it even allowed?)
3. The bad news is, your husband is kind of poor, the alimony he can pay you is only $50 a month. You are on your own now.
4. Your children will be fine. God bless them.
5. If you don't like my guidance, which is from God, you may leave the church.

Case closed.

[Rock]

... it is hard not to snap either in the role of a confidante to the protagonist or just as a neutral female reader, even though it’s a one-sided story...

I was wondering why you would snap for this story. The protagonist states three things: 1. Her husband stopped wanting to have sex as much since several years ago, and they barely have sex at all now. 2. She finds that her husband has been secretly making long late night phone calls with a woman from work. 3. The woman is gorgeous. Of all the three things, I only find #2 problematic, and it's not a solid evidence for infidelity. Do you consider emotional affair a crime?

[Janice Wang]

... it is hard not to snap either in the role of a confidante to the protagonist or just as a neutral female reader, even though it’s a one-sided story...

I was wondering why you would snap for this story. The protagonist states three things: 1. Her husband stopped wanting to have sex as much since several years ago, and they barely have sex at all now. 2. She finds that her husband has been secretly making long late night phone calls with a woman from work. 3. The woman is gorgeous. Of all the three things, I only find #2 problematic, and it's not a solid evidence for infidelity. Do you consider emotional affair a crime?

Rock, you just brought up a debatable question–Is emotional cheating still cheating? Everyone may spin it differently. No doubt at all, it is as harmful as a physical affair! Both are horrible, and one usually leads to the other.

It’s alright to have a close friendship with the opposite gender and even feel attracted to someone gorgeous given it is human nature. However, who would stay awake and have a long talk with someone at midnight? The answer is an insomniac or a person who’s in love. I think the protagonist’s husband has already crossed the boundaries of platonic friendship. What more beyond-the-pale evidence do we need to take into account to prove his infidelity?

Last but not least, let’s stick with Holly’s topic-Changing your story. For a potentially troubled marriage, nothing is more important than keeping a cool head. If one still tries to salvage the marriage for whatever reason, one should go to a professional. Counseling can help zero in on the root cause of the problems, and give opinions from the neutral ground. Do not let outsiders hijack your mind or interfere in the business. Be the one to write your own story!

[Luis Ko]

恕刪.. However, undoubtedly, it is a desperate cry for help for those who are severely mentally ill.

should those who go to see psychotherapist be deemed mentally ill? do they take prescribed medicine from the therapists? if not, i don't think we can say they are mentally ill, or it will contradict what so-called experts have said about the illness. it's said mental illness is a disease of mind which can't be cured by encouragement, or through conversation or positive conversation, not to mention if it's severely mentally illness. even a person has to go through a long term therapy they just can't be viewed as mentally ill. the image of mentally ill on those people is simply an implicit stereotype from the society i would say. just like my answer to one of Iris' question the other day, “We've had 100 years of psychotherapy— and the world's getting worse. How could that be?”, it's either because psychotherapy simply doesn't work or, many people just dare not give it a try because of the bias.

then again, if i have to categorize psychotherapy into certain area, i would say it's kind of a religion. it's good you have faith in it so that you would feel better about yourself and your life, but it's really no good if you put all your faith in it, like you put all your faith in a religion lo~ if i may say so.

[Luis Ko]

... it is hard not to snap either in the role of a confidante to the protagonist or just as a neutral female reader, even though it’s a one-sided story...

I was wondering why you would snap for this story. The protagonist states three things: 1. Her husband stopped wanting to have sex as much since several years ago, and they barely have sex at all now. 2. She finds that her husband has been secretly making long late night phone calls with a woman from work. 3. The woman is gorgeous. Of all the three things, I only find #2 problematic, and it's not a solid evidence for infidelity. Do you consider emotional affair a crime?

i think it's justifiable to be angry, if i don't get it wrong, even if it's not infidelity. how on earth can a husband/wife leave their other half out in the cold and have long late night "hotline" secretly with someone gorgeous?? if things like this happens in a relationship, it must be a concern for one if their other half is concerned about it, if the relationship is still good enough i would say.

[Rock]

Dear Janice, I totally agree with you-- no midnight secret phone calls. How about Line?

[Iris Wu]

[Notes: I feel so sorry for not catching up earlier. Life sucks! Too busy to be well-prepared and in-sync with the rich discussion in this thread. Wish I can change my obligations wisely to shape up my life!) ]

YoYo loves self-reflection topics and questions but self-disclosure or revealing personal emotions may be a tough row to hoe. It is easier to talk over a generic scenario or discuss someone else’s stories.

Here comes one. We all have “competitors” or we believe someone belittles us in certain fields. When a relevant stage is set, you’ve worked so hard to perform, but you still fail. At that moment, you could not help feeling down. All the images in your head are how your fall from grace satisfies your competitors. You are so upset because your failure is only to prove to those who disparage you that they are right about you! All these mind-blogging scenes play in your head again and again and you cannot simply get over it.

As a bystander, it is so easy to point out the issue: He who chooses to be trapped in the bad story will only be overrun with sorrow. Changing the “illusion” playing in your head and remaking the story to include all of those who are fond of you and support you will totally change the theme!

But challenges remain. When the failure is in a critical point and you are facing a decision of whether to continue a path, then what kind of different story you are going to make lies on your wisdom. I do find out one of my issues at the crux of the matter was that I tried to make a new story to wipe out the old sad story; I wishfully think the new story will be more splendid without any base. That is definitely dangerous, because even if history doesn’t repeat itself, but it rhymes.

[Janice Wang]

Dear Janice, I totally agree with you-- no midnight secret phone calls. How about Line?

Rock, we line with people all day long. So, I presumed you were talking about an unusual one, is sexting cheating?

[Janice Wang]

... it is hard not to snap either in the role of a confidante to the protagonist or just as a neutral female reader, even though it’s a one-sided story...

I was wondering why you would snap for this story. The protagonist states three things: 1. Her husband stopped wanting to have sex as much since several years ago, and they barely have sex at all now. 2. She finds that her husband has been secretly...

i think it's justifiable to be angry, if i don't get it wrong, even if it's not infidelity. how on earth can a husband/wife leave their other half out in the cold and have long late night "hotline" secretly with someone gorgeous?? if things like this happens in a relationship, it must be a concern for one if their other half is concerned about it, if the relationship is still good enough i would say.

Luis, I would snap as well even if the scenario of the case is a husband/wife occasionally having a long late-night call with someone average-looking! Commitment is a choice to give up choices. Once committed in a relationship, are we supposed to have all our energy go into making the commitment work?

[Rock]

Commitment is a choice to give up choices. Once committed in a relationship, are we supposed to have all our energy go into making the commitment work?

Cool! Now we are having an in-depth conversation. I agree with the first one that couples should give up choices outside the relationship. But putting all our energy on the relationship may not always be the best solution, and even should be avoided, in some cases. We all have our limits. When we reach the limit and think that enough is enough, it's better not to force it anymore. Acceptance, tolerance and low expectations can sometimes work magic.
Before helping others to put on the mask, you may need to put it on yourself, if you know what I mean.

[hollywang1991]

My reaction to the story of QW-I1 hinges on how close the relationship I have with the protagonist. As an outsider, listening is often the only thing needed to help someone in relationship issues. However, it is hard not to snap either in the role of a confidante to the protagonist or just as a neutral female reader, even though it’s a one-sided story.

In the speech, the speaker points out what makes us unreliable narrators of our own lives is that we are used to being tethered to a moral stance. We live in a culture driven by expectations - some even evolved into beliefs we don’t dare to question or challenge. We somehow subconsciously present a narration to cater to the deep-rooted beliefs or delusionally expect the modified story to beat the drum for everyone and everything. From a positive point of view, one has to practice what he preaches until the greatest awakening comes!

Agreed!

Like many people, I have never come across anyone that ever shared their experiences of seeing a therapist. I think most people would prefer to keep it private unless one feels comfortable enough to reveal the information. However, it is a very familiar scene in so many movies and tv shows. Most of them go to therapy to seek help for problematic relationships–no matter with their partners or with themselves. Some people are much more open to their pain or problems, and some counseling seems to just be going through the motions. Seeing a therapist is a monetary and spiritual investment, also a time-consuming process, and may never pay off. However, undoubtedly, it is a desperate cry for help for those who are severely mentally ill.

I have several experience on seeing a therapist and I can say it really helps! And yes, most of us would like to keep it private, probably because of our culture?