5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

JohnH
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註冊時間: 週日 5月 13, 2018 11:10 pm

5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

文章 JohnH »

Session 1

1. In the old testament of the bible, Adam and Eve became conscious after eating the forbidden fruits from the tree of knowledge of evil and good. What really creates the consciousness in your view? Do you think animals and plants also have the consciousness as we do? Why?

2. The placebo effect phenomenon has remained a mystery and it seems to suggest that there is a linkage between our body and the mind. One of the explanations put forth is the holographic nature of our brain, which is detailed in the book "The Holographic Universe". What do you think is at play for this phenomenon? Do you think our brain and even this universe might be a hologram? Please share your ideas.
Reference video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIkffBRI9eI

3. Elon Musk once said "There's a billion to one chance we're living in base reality". What's your take on this statement? Do you agree on his point that it will be better this way as described in the video? What are other arguments which support or oppose to it? Do you know other models which better explain the concept of reality?
Reference video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBKRuI2zHp0&t=177s

Session 2

Let's take off the religious lens for a moment and dive into the fascinating content of this book. There are numerous videos on the internet covering the content in greater depth if you want to learn more. The URLs down below are the brief summaries for you to quickly get the gist. I also provide the videos on this topic in both English and Chinese for reference in the links.
Summary A
https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-ti ... uotes.html
Summary B
https://www.joincake.com/blog/tibetan-book-of-the-dead/
"New Eyes" on the Tibetan Book of the Dead: What Happens After You Die?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBl5v2WGqrI&t
The Tibetan Book of the Dead: It makes you stronger and helped Jung to build Collective Unconscious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mb2UuCX28Q&t

1. Do you believe in reincarnation? Why and why not? Or do you have a different view on this concept(It could also be interpreted symbolically)? Please share your thoughts on this topic.

2. What do you think these three Bardos represent individually? Why does the first Bardo—self-liberating luminosity so hard to spot as it seems to be the easiest to break the cycle?

3. What's your overall view on this book? Which part do you find gripping or nonsensical?

*******************************************************************************************
Agenda:
3:45 ~ 4:00pm Greetings & Free Talk / Ordering Beverage or Meal / Getting Newcomer’s Information
4:00 ~ 4:10pm Opening Remarks / Newcomer’s Self-introduction / Grouping
(Session I)
4:10 ~ 4:50pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
4:50 ~ 5:10pm Summarization (20 mins)
5:10 ~ 5:15pm Regrouping / Instruction Giving / Taking a 10 Minutes Break (Intermission)
(Session II)
5:15 ~ 5:55pm Discussion Session (40 mins)
6:00 ~ 6:20pm Summarization (20 mins)
6:20 ~ 6:30pm Concluding Remarks / Announcements

Meeting Date: As shown on the Subject Line
Meeting Time: 4:00pm – 6:30pm

On-site meeting:
Meeting Venue: 丹堤咖啡 Dante Coffee (Minimum Order $80)
Address: 台北市濟南路三段25號[MAP]-捷運忠孝新生站3號出口步行3分鐘

Online meeting:
Zoom meeting ID: 88548972682
Password: 784362
Link: https://us06web.zoom.us/j/88548972682
#YoyoEnglishClub

Important Notes:
1. We advise participants to print out the discussion questions and bring them to the meeting for reference. As for the supporting articles, feel free to print them out, as well, according to your preference.
2. We suggest that participants read the articles and think about the questions in advance.
3. Newcomers should prepare a two-to-three minute self-introduction in English to deliver when called upon by the host before the start of the discussion. The host may also ask you to give brief feedback about the meeting at the conclusion of the meeting.
4. We conduct the entire meeting in English. All participants should have at least moderate English-conversation skills and be able to articulate your ideas for each discussion question.
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最後由 JohnH 於 週六 5月 28, 2022 8:13 am 編輯,總共編輯了 3 次。
Michael-liu
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文章: 696
註冊時間: 週五 4月 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Michael-liu »

About Question 1, do plants have conscious?I have a real experience to share.

About 10 years ago, I met a women in Royal English Club, and we became close friends. She practices meditation, which is what we call “靈修” in Chinese. She told me she could communicate with trees, and she proved it to me.

We went to a park and found a big tree. She sat in front of the tree and started to communicate with the tree. A few minutes later, a part of 整根樹枝 with many leaves moved obviously left and right. There was no wind at the time, so it was not caused by wind. I was so amazed by the scene I was witnessing.

I ever told this story to yo yo members, but I think nobody believed me.

John, do you believe my experience?
JohnH
YOYO member
文章: 26
註冊時間: 週日 5月 13, 2018 11:10 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 JohnH »

Michael-liu 寫:
週日 5月 22, 2022 3:49 am
About Question 1, do plants have conscious?I have a real experience to share.

About 10 years ago, I met a women in Royal English Club, and we became close friends. She practices meditation, which is what we call “靈修” in Chinese. She told me she could communicate with trees, and she proved it to me.

We went to a park and found a big tree. She sat in front of the tree and started to communicate with the tree. A few minutes later, a part of 整根樹枝 with many leaves moved obviously left and right. There was no wind at the time, so it was not caused by wind. I was so amazed by the scene I was witnessing.

I ever told this story to yo yo members, but I think nobody believed me.

John, do you believe my experience?
Hi Michael,
I believe in the authenticity of your account. I don't think there is anyone who can claim that the reality they experience is more real than that of others. So it has less to do with whether I believe it but more to do with "what's her definition for communication in this case" and "in what sense does she communicate with the plants?".
Michael-liu
YOYO member
文章: 696
註冊時間: 週五 4月 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Michael-liu »

Hi, John

Thanks for believing in the authenticity of my story.

As for your questions, she did not explain to me “how” she communicated with plants. However, I myself believe that her practice of 靈修 makes her to have the ability to do “telepathy”, which means, according to the dictionary, “the ability to know what is in someone else's mind, or to communicate with someone mentally, without using words or other physical signals”. So, my experience proves the plants have conscious like we human beings.

By the way, another amazing supernatural phenomenon I experienced is from our yo yo member, Tashi. He practices 氣功 and he proved it to me 氣功 does exist. Since this is not related to your topic, we can talk about it in private, if you like.
JohnH
YOYO member
文章: 26
註冊時間: 週日 5月 13, 2018 11:10 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 JohnH »

Michael-liu 寫:
週日 5月 22, 2022 6:42 pm
Hi, John

Thanks for believing in the authenticity of my story.

As for your questions, she did not explain to me “how” she communicated with plants. However, I myself believe that her practice of 靈修 makes her to have the ability to do “telepathy”, which means, according to the dictionary, “the ability to know what is in someone else's mind, or to communicate with someone mentally, without using words or other physical signals”. So, my experience proves the plants have conscious like we human beings.

By the way, another amazing supernatural phenomenon I experienced is from our yo yo member, Tashi. He practices 氣功 and he proved it to me 氣功 does exist. Since this is not related to your topic, we can talk about it in private, if you like.
Speaking of telepathy, I also experienced something similar before when I heard the voice of one of my family members in her absence(not within my hearing range). She wasn't shouting out loud either. Instead, it was more of a inner chatter. She was in shock when I stated exactly what she was thinking about in her head at the time. But I have no idea whether it counts as telepathy. Apparently what I experienced involved the component of language in communication, which is different from the thoughts exchange in non-linguistic manner.
Michael-liu
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文章: 696
註冊時間: 週五 4月 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Michael-liu »

I sort of believe in reincarnation. It is said that if your children are good boys or good girls, they are born to 報恩(to return parents' favor in previous life). If they are rebellious and drive you nuts, they are born to 報仇.

This reincarnation concept also applies to wife and husband. I ever attended a speech of 施寄青老師. She said all married couples are 冤親債主 in previous life. I kind of believe that.
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Rock
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Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Rock »

Michael-liu 寫:
週六 5月 28, 2022 3:57 am
I sort of believe in reincarnation. It is said that if your children are good boys or good girls, they are born to 報恩(to return parents' favor in previous life)...
That's karma.
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
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Rock
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文章: 2088
註冊時間: 週三 10月 31, 2007 9:03 am

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

文章 Rock »

But then I don't understand why this manufacturer in Taiwan wants to call itself "Karma". Does it make the one sitting on it feel better?


圖檔
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
Kooper
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註冊時間: 週三 4月 11, 2007 11:40 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

文章 Kooper »

The argument made by Elon Mask that there is only one in billions of odds that we live in a base reality seems logical and convincing, but I find it hard to embrace. Today, we are apparently in control of the time and efforts we wanna allocate among virtual realities and what we perceived as authentic reality. There is free will and consciousness at play in the choice and switch between the two lives.

Given the accelerating advance of technology, I imagine that in a not-so-far future there could be multiple layers of virtual reality being created. No matter which layer of reality we live in and whatever mindset or role we possess in that layer of world, it still requires the same brain, the same mind, to perceive and respond. Basically we cannot live in multiple realities simultaneously. Through some kind of time-division multiplexing technique at best only a quasi-simultaneous state can be achieved.

If today we actually live in a simulated world, that would be pathetic and desperate. Obviously if that is the case, we are living this way unwittingly and seem to have no strength to break free from it. That to me leads to the only conclusion that in base reality we are probably under full control - both mentally and physically - of another much more advanced civilization – aliens, AI, or another group of human beings in power – and are being raised like slaves or livestock.
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Rock
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文章: 2088
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Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Rock »

Michael-liu 寫:
週日 5月 22, 2022 3:49 am
...She told me she could communicate with trees, and she proved it to me.

We went to a park and found a big tree. She sat in front of the tree and started to communicate with the tree. A few minutes later, a part of 整根樹枝 with many leaves moved obviously left and right. There was no wind at the time, so it was not caused by wind...
I remember this discussion. I believe that you have experienced something, but it is very unlikely as what you thought.

I teach carpentry at school. The science of trees is this: only the bark is alive and can still grow. Inside, the wooden part is dead and used to support the tree. It's like skin around the bone, with no muscles in between. The design is not intended to move but only for growth.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... 0branches.

I don't know if a tree can communicate with human beings. But if it does, it certainly won't do it that way. It's against its natural design. Again, I believe you have experience something. But it's something else, not the wood moving itslef without the wind.
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
Michael-liu
YOYO member
文章: 696
註冊時間: 週五 4月 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Michael-liu »

Rock 寫:
週六 5月 28, 2022 10:12 am
Michael-liu 寫:
週六 5月 28, 2022 3:57 am
I sort of believe in reincarnation. It is said that if your children are good boys or good girls, they are born to 報恩(to return parents' favor in previous life)...
That's karma.
The children scenario I am talking about includes both concepts of reincarnation and karma. Karma doesn't necessarily happen in people's next life. It can happen in present life.
Michael-liu
YOYO member
文章: 696
註冊時間: 週五 4月 24, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: John)

文章 Michael-liu »

Rock 寫:
週六 5月 28, 2022 11:10 am
Michael-liu 寫:
週日 5月 22, 2022 3:49 am
...She told me she could communicate with trees, and she proved it to me.

We went to a park and found a big tree. She sat in front of the tree and started to communicate with the tree. A few minutes later, a part of 整根樹枝 with many leaves moved obviously left and right. There was no wind at the time, so it was not caused by wind...
I remember this discussion. I believe that you have experienced something, but it is very unlikely as what you thought.

I teach carpentry at school. The science of trees is this: only the bark is alive and can still grow. Inside, the wooden part is dead and used to support the tree. It's like skin around the bone, with no muscles in between. The design is not intended to move but only for growth.

I don't know if a tree can communicate with human beings. But if it does, it certainly won't do it that way. It's against its natural design. Again, I believe you have experience something. But it's something else, not the wood moving itslef without the wind.
But what something else? If you can not provide a possible theory of what I witnessed, then how can you be sure it is not what I thought it was?
Iris Wu
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註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

文章 Iris Wu »

Q3: Another model to depict the concept of reality could be “consciousness creates reality”, as claimed by some “new physics” scientists.

Consciousness, our thoughts, feelings, basically our minds can change the reality of the physical elements/matters; placebo effect may be one of the examples.

Quantum physicists did some more experiments which I totally got lost in their explanation, but the conclusion is that our minds connect the materials and creates the outcome as desired.
In the extreme, everything is energy, nothing solid, our minds can take a quantum leap. I maybe made up this conclusion, but I think it’s not too far away from where they are heading to.
We think therefore the reality is. The observer creates the reality.

I have no clue about the quantum physics, but I can relate this reality model to the concept of Buddhism. The world change along with our minds (consciousness) change.
JohnH
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文章: 26
註冊時間: 週日 5月 13, 2018 11:10 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

文章 JohnH »

Iris Wu 寫:
週六 5月 28, 2022 3:06 pm
Q3: Another model to depict the concept of reality could be “consciousness creates reality”, as claimed by some “new physics” scientists.

Consciousness, our thoughts, feelings, basically our minds can change the reality of the physical elements/matters; placebo effect may be one of the examples.

Quantum physicists did some more experiments which I totally got lost in their explanation, but the conclusion is that our minds connect the materials and creates the outcome as desired.
In the extreme, everything is energy, nothing solid, our minds can take a quantum leap. I maybe made up this conclusion, but I think it’s not too far away from where they are heading to.
We think therefore the reality is. The observer creates the reality.

I have no clue about the quantum physics, but I can relate this reality model to the concept of Buddhism. The world change along with our minds (consciousness) change.
Hi Iris,
Are the experiments carried out here regarding what's referred to as "measurement problem" in quantum physics?
This is what I know about this concept.
There is a physical property in quantum called "non-locality", which means the location of the quantum isn't defined in the given area and the probability of finding it is equally spread(It could appear here and there and where it finally shows up pretty much comes down to probability). What truly determines the final location of the quantum is the "measurement", which causes the wave function to collapse.(Just think of it as the probability density function, describing the probability of the quantum showing up at each point in the given area). This is also where the problem arises.
What really constitutes the measurement?
One school of thought believes it is the presence of the observer of the "conscious" being that collapses the wave function and determines its final location. If so, it might suggest that the reality we perceive might be the result of the collective efforts of conscious beings.
You can check out the talk between Jordan Peterson(Probably the most well-known psychologist among youngsters nowadays) and Roger Penrose(Nobel prize winner for his achievement on mathematical model of black-hole related stuffs) over this topic.
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 833
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: 5/28[Sat.] Levels of realities and Bardo Thodol(H: David Jr.)

文章 Iris Wu »

Thanks for the reply, John!
I think we might be talking about the same thing. The quantum physics experiment I was referring to is the famous "double slit experiment". This short video explains concisely about the experiment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho

Honestly, I am still having hard time understanding the "measurement problem", but the school of thoughts that you stated about "what really constitutes the measurement" is exactly what I tried to convey in my previous post.
You summarized it so much better: "the reality we perceive might be the result of the collective efforts of conscious beings."
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