BR2018-1: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

Re: BR2018-1: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

文章Iris Wu » 週二 3月 13, 2018 9:59 am

Michael: So, no animals have self-awareness, right? Yes or No?

The reason I mentioned about the apple is because it was from 知善惡樹 in bible. The meme helped me reminisce this story from Genesis. But I guess we had discussed those in justice session
but michael's questions is very interesting, can a pig, one of animals with high intellegence, be aware of itself as a "pig"? (the PIG here is just for reading, it could be a different "sound" in PIG world)

Tina would say yes. I don't see why a pig can't while a dog can have an awareness. But certainly their recognitions of "dogs" and "pig" are different from us.

or maybe Tanya could further chime in for what the benefits are to our mental state without consciousness being developed?

ummm can l use meme again? l found myself too lazy to type....
(The mental states: worries, (basically thinking too much…caused all the “miserable feelings”)

Luis: So, without consciousness 就…不會想太多了…
Michael: Haha, yeah, this meme is so inspiring! Good! 很多事情都是人類自尋煩惱. But then again, how do you 不要想太多? It is difficult to control your own consciousness

My opinion is different on this issue. I think human consciousness is a vital asset for Sapiens.
I think the author holds a similar view. OK, maybe not so similar… :p
In Chapter 9, Harari points out that “Cognitive dissonance is often considered a failure of the human psyche. In fact, it is a vital asset. Had people been unable to hold contradictory beliefs and values, it would probably have been impossible to establish and maintain any human culture.
Human, as an individual, may suffer from consciousness and all the conflicts that come along with. But that’s what keeps the whole society moving forward.
If one day I lose the ability to think, I think I would rather die. (Seriously)

Rock: Then you don't know what "want to die" is, how do you die?

Sherry: To lose the ability to think and to die, I choose that latter

Rock: Do trees care about being cut down? Does a carrot care about being pulled off the ground?

Wen-han: for the sake of philosophical discussion, lossing consciousness doesn't mean you don't think. That's a philosophical zombie assumption. In reality, the ultimate goal of AI is to make the "thing" think as we do. But it's impossible, as I know, to code "consciousness". Religiously, someone believe it's the soul.

Sherry: I know nothing about philosophy... but in psychology, losing a conscious mind means losing brain functions that involved in cognition. That's what I meant

That's the view inclining to biology or medical. But nowadays, it's very possible to train the machines to think, which is a known fact. But consciousness, is a different matter. So, don't rush signing up to die yet:)
actually I just had an idea. What if consciousness is the necessary stop for evolution? I am saying this for that maybe one day, once the AI think deep and hard enought, it may come out its own consciousness, breaking the knowledge barrier to cognition territory.

Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 513
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: BR2018-1: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind

文章Iris Wu » 週二 3月 13, 2018 10:05 am

From what I read in this discussion thread (and maybe some of my comments added):
Question: Are sapiens more miserable? (Does evolution bring us more well-being or suffering?)
    1) Evolution of genes is neutral; it has NO feelings.
    2) From biological point of view, evolution has no purpose. We don’t have good explanations for many things occurred in the whole evolution process.
    3) But, somehow a serious “misstep of evolution” happened – Human consciousness or our self-awareness.
    4) Why so? Why is it a misstep?
    5) Human consciousness/self-awareness made us think and work and feel under this illusion of self.
    6) All the positive and negative mental states (feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction, happiness or misery) caused and accreted by the consciousness/self-awareness.
    7) Human consciousness:
      a. Caused and enhanced the miserable feelings as described in (6)
      b. Gives the evolution a sense of “humanity”: People even choose to exist with it over just living without it (the consciousness).
    8 ) A double-edged sword: Human consciousness
      a. Makes human beings so miserable that we should all go extinct all together!
      “I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We are too self-aware…under the illusion of having a self… (we were) programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody... I think the honorable thing for our species to do is to deny our programming. Stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction.”
      – quoted from “True Detective”
      b. Gives the evolution a sense of “humanity”: It may also create a fork in the evolutionary road, the biological evolution and cultural evolution. The latter was probably defined and evolved in our human conscious order. We became more self-awareness, more powerful and more aggressive (relative to other animals) along with the accretion of our sensory experience and feelings and desire. But what would it lead us to? AI, Cyborgs and something more destructive to the whole human race? Can we really manage the “consciousness in the evolution”?
    9) Either way, sapiens may be just part of a game. Somewhere it was given the “consciousness” to start its own game playing in the bigger game plot. But at the end, the game will be just over, no matter what?
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 513
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm


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