BR2019-1:Bad Blood (Secrets and Lies in a Startup)

BR2019-1:Bad Blood (Secrets and Lies in a Startup)

文章Iris Wu » 週六 4月 06, 2019 9:19 am

"Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup" by John Carreyrou

Reading Plan:
For anyone who likes to read together, this is the “Bad Blood” reading schedule: 2/25/19 – 4/30/19
• Part I Discussion (Ch. 1 to Ch. 13): 3/30/19 (Saturday)
• Part II Discussion (Ch. 14 to Ch. 24): 4/27/19 (Saturday)
Final Discussion: 4/27/19 (Saturday)

Book Introduction from Goodread: (
    "The full inside story of the breathtaking rise and shocking collapse of a multibillion-dollar startup, by the prize-winning journalist who first broke the story and pursued it to the end in the face of pressure and threats from the CEO and her lawyers.

    In 2014, Theranos founder and CEO Elizabeth Holmes was widely seen as the female Steve Jobs: a brilliant Stanford dropout whose startup "unicorn" promised to revolutionize the medical industry with a machine that would make blood tests significantly faster and easier. Backed by investors such as Larry Ellison and Tim Draper, Theranos sold shares in a fundraising round that valued the company at $9 billion, putting Holmes's worth at an estimated $4.7 billion. There was just one problem: The technology didn't work.

    For years, Holmes had been misleading investors, FDA officials, and her own employees. When Carreyrou, working at The Wall Street Journal, got a tip from a former Theranos employee and started asking questions, both Carreyrou and the Journal were threatened with lawsuits. Undaunted, the newspaper ran the first of dozens of Theranos articles in late 2015. By early 2017, the company's value was zero and Holmes faced potential legal action from the government and her investors. Here is the riveting story of the biggest corporate fraud since Enron, a disturbing cautionary tale set amid the bold promises and gold-rush frenzy of Silicon Valley."
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 628
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: BR2019-1:Bad Blood (Secrets and Lies in a Startup)

文章Iris Wu » 週六 4月 06, 2019 9:25 am

Sat, 02/23/2019

12:31 PM Iris Wu Hi, All: I posted following omments on YoYo Forum (2/26):

12:32 PM Iris Wu "I was writing the following paragraph and thinking to post on our LINE Book Reading group:
""If you have the bandwidth to accommodate a couple of books in your 2019 ideal throughput, here is the first one that you can work on and I am pretty sure you won’t regret it. The book title is: “Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup”. It is one of the five books Bill Gates recommended for 2018."""

12:32 PM Iris Wu Then I saw Christine's posting. It's wonderful to discuss this "incredible/unbelievable " story in the meeting, but the book was nicely-written, well-organized and very easy to read. The story and the characters were unfolded in a way that once you started the reading, you had hard time to put it down until you finished it. So, if you have the capacity to read the book, I think it's really worth reading, but I certainly understand once we study the excerpt of the story and discuss in the meeting, it will be less motivated to read the book.

12:34 PM Iris Wu Yeah, I was trying to hide out... :)

12:36 PM Iris Wu couldn't help referring a good read to the group...

12:43 PM david siao "This book, right?

Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup"

12:44 PM Iris Wu Yes!

12:57 PM Michael Liu I googled it. This book is about a company called Theranos. I never heard of this company. 呵呵
01:07 PM Iris Wu Yeah, Theranos, amalgam of "Therapy" and "Diagnosis"! It's a $9B (valued) scandal! :)

01:11 PM Michael Liu I found out this book has Chinese version

01:23 PM You unsent a message.

01:23 PM Iris Wu "I know! :)

But the original one is really very easy to read. I am not kidding. You will get great feelings of accomplishment. :)

Mainly the story is interesting to get you going. "

01:30 PM Michael Liu Ok, I can't wait to read it, but I have to buy an electronic reading device first.

01:33 PM Iris Wu I wonder if there is any eFile online?

01:34 PM Michael Liu You mean a free version or a kindle version?

01:42 PM Iris Wu I mean if there is a free one?

02:55 PM Kat There's an epub version online! (big grin)

03:17 PM Michael Liu Really? I could not find it. Some are asking for credit card information, so I ignored them

03:22 PM Kat I forgot where I got it from, but I can message you the file. (wink)

03:30 PM Iris Wu I have to thank Kat for the invite to her meetup, because of that, I had to finish the "Bad Blood" in a week and concurred that it's a pleasant read! :)

03:33 PM Kat Thanks Iris, you made the discussion so much more informative and fruitful! (heart journal) And I not only love the book but also admire the author's writing and integrity. A must read! (two thumbs up)

03:43 PM Iris Wu Yes. The book shows many ethical problems in the industry, but amazingly so many whistleblowers struggled and fought with voracious executives and lawyers from the early stage to the end. I take my hat to their courage and daring, too!

03:53 PM Iris Wu Sorry, "whistleblowers" should be the ones in the later stage, I meant to say, many "conscientious employees" from the very beginning fought with the system.

06:19 PM Michael Liu By the way, Kat and Iris, 昨天看美國影集 Madam Secretary 時, 竟然出現三位前國務卿 Hillary, Powell, Albright 一起出現在劇中客串飾演他們自己。Isn't it amazing? 哈哈

07:58 PM Iris Wu "Really? It is fun to see some celebrities play themselves in the TV series, like Elon Musk on The Big Band Theory. :)

But I am pretty sure, in the upcoming ""Bad Blood"" movie, the two former Secretary of State, George Shultz and Henry Kissinger, will not play themselves in this film! :)"

08:11 PM Michael Liu [Sticker]

08:15 PM Michael Liu Oh....all of a sudden, I recall who this Shultz is. 舒茲, I probably heard of his name when I was at elementary or middle school.

08:24 PM Kat One of the producers did Homeland. Somebody behind the show must have incredible connections!

08:49 PM Michael Liu Yeah, because the producer is Morgan Freeman

11:55 PM Michael Liu I am reading the book. The biochemical and technical part is killing me.

Sun, 02/24/2019

12:08 AM Michael Liu But other parts are interesting to read, though

01:20 AM Iris Wu "Michael, you can just grab the bigger picture of the technical part. I think very few people really understand the details.
For me, I thought the challenge was to clarify who’s who and what they did. The author did a good job to rephrase each character for their role in each case, but sometimes you may still get messed up. A good way to deal with it is to read quickly and non-stop! :)"

05:49 AM Michael Liu Ok. the story is so intriguing that I want to finish it ASAP!

09:08 AM Iris Wu invited ⁨christine⁩.

09:08 AM christine joined the group.

09:10 AM Iris Wu Welcome, Madam President! :)

09:11 AM christine Ha ha, thank you, Iris! It's been long time since we met last time!

09:11 AM christine How are you?

09:15 AM Iris Wu "I am doing great!
I saw your message on the forum. We are reading the “Bad Blood”. You are welcome to join. "

09:18 AM Iris Wu Your meeting will be a good intro for everybody! :)

09:18 AM christine Is it just started?

09:20 AM Iris Wu Yes. I just posted it yesterday.

09:21 AM christine [Sticker]

09:22 AM christine So, I think the first thing I should do is to get the book first, isn't it?

09:33 AM christine Thanks for the invitation :)

09:38 AM Iris Wu [Sticker]

09:41 AM Iris Wu Since you will be hosting the meeting on this subject, I am sure you will have great contribution to the discussion! :)

09:45 AM christine Ha ha, I hope so.

10:29 AM 品宜Alice Hi guys, I am Alice, I am interested in Bad Blood too(emoji)(emoji) Does anyone can tell me where I can get the free one to read? Many thanks (Thanks)

12:37 PM Michael Liu

04:31 PM 品宜Alice [Sticker]

05:49 PM 銘墾 (Tashi) @品宜Alice long time no see

06:16 PM 品宜Alice Yeah, looking forward to see you guys around(emoji)

06:19 PM 銘墾 (Tashi) [Sticker]

09:07 PM Iris Wu "Thanks, Michael, for the book link!
Welcome, Alice!"

09:08 PM Iris Wu "While reading the book, it's easy to drive your own answers for the two basic questions:
1) How could the company, Theranos, get so far with such brazen/unashamed lies?
2) Why do so many high-profile supporters get played by Theranos?"

Tue, 02/26/2019

01:13 AM Iris Wu For Theranos case, some people think Elizabeth Holmes was just a practitioner of “fake it till you make it” and the fall of the company was simply because it got caught prematurely, if given more time, she may make it. What's your thought on this?

01:32 AM Michael Liu There are 24 chapters in the book, and I am on chapter 10 only at the moment

01:49 AM Iris Wu "OMG! You are a fast reader!
It’s only one day and you are almost done with half of the book! Are you reading it 24 hours a day? :)"

03:15 AM Michael Liu NO NO, two days already, and I skipped some difficult parts.

07:36 AM Iris Wu "No worries!
It’s not poetry, no need to read word by word. :)"

Wed, 02/27/2019

09:06 PM 品宜Alice [Photo]

09:08 PM 品宜Alice I just bumped into a guy reading BAD BLOOD, such a concidence(emoji)(emoji)(emoji)

10:23 PM Michael Liu Wow! Cool! It looks like this book is huge

Thu, 02/28/2019

01:26 AM Iris Wu Haha! Maybe we should invite him to join YoYo! :)

01:33 AM Michael Liu 這書看起來好厚呀!

01:45 AM Iris Wu Yeah, that's why I like e-book, they all look the same. :)

01:45 AM Iris Wu "For anyone who likes to read together, this is the “Bad Blood” reading schedule: 2/25/19 – 4/30/19
• Part I Discussion (Ch. 1 to Ch. 13): 3/30/19 (Saturday)
• Part II Discussion (Ch. 14 to Ch. 24): 4/30/19 (Tuesday)"

01:45 AM Iris Wu I will continue posting some questions and we can always share any ideas and thoughts from the book/story. Thanks!

01:46 AM Iris Wu [Notes] For anyone who likes to read together, this is the “Bad Blood” reading schedule: 2/25/19 – 4/30/19

03:55 AM Michael Liu Iris, what device do you use to read a e-book?

08:46 AM 品宜Alice Actually sounds a great idea(emoji)Unfortunately, I didn't leave his contact haha, yet I can't help to tell him I'm reading this one too when I am about to get off the station(emoji)(emoji)

08:47 AM 品宜Alice [Sticker]

09:26 AM Iris Wu Michael, I read eBooks on Kindle or sometimes Kindle App on my phone.

10:46 AM 品宜Alice I use Kindle app too, which is also quite handy and easy to read(emoji)

12:53 PM Kat I'll be out of the country so won't be able to join the talks. (moon streaming tears) But it's an absolute must-read! (two thumbs up)

03:08 PM Michael Liu Wow! You are brave!
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 628
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: BR2019-1:Bad Blood (Secrets and Lies in a Startup)

文章Iris Wu » 週六 4月 06, 2019 9:27 am

Sat, 03/02/2019

08:48 PM Rita joined the group.

09:53 PM Michael Liu Iris, it was a pity you don't join the dinner tonight. We were discussing the book

09:53 PM Michael Liu didn't

10:55 PM Iris Wu "Ah! I missed the boat!
What was discussed?

Actually I have a question. I finished “Homo Deus”, then read the “Bad Blood”, and I was puzzled by where we stand in terms of technology advancement.

Homo Deus explains the rise of techno-humanism, and predicts soon humans can be upgraded into a brand new species.

But after reading Bad Blood, you find that in reality we cannot even simplify a blood testing procedure!!

So are we really on the verge of advancing our species into something unpredictable?


10:59 PM Michael Liu Tough question

Sun, 03/03/2019

03:17 AM Michael Liu So, maybe the "upgrading into a brand new species" is just Dr. Harari's personal imagination. No offense to him, though. Even he is a well-respected historian. After finishing reading "Bad Blood", a lesson I learned is to be skeptical about people who get a lot of media attention. For this notion, Luis is our role model.

06:06 AM Michael Liu I found this very latest news, dated 2/26/2019, about Elizabeth Holmes.

06:06 AM Michael Liu ... ng-man/amp

06:26 AM Michael Liu Oops, sorry, the above article is just a "briefing", maybe I should go to library to read the whole article.

11:44 AM Michael Liu [Albums] (null)

02:24 PM 品宜Alice Wow, I think it is a great way to memorize the words(emoji)(emoji)(emoji)

02:49 PM Michael Liu Yeah, and if I have a new cell phone in the future, I still can find my notes in this group easily.

05:53 PM Iris Wu "Wonderful!
I guess we can all use the album to add new things learned in the book. Thanks, Michael! "

06:12 PM Iris Wu "Burning Man is a popular event/festival, especially among young generation.

The more you know about Holmes, the more you agree with the following comments in the book:

“Her ambition was voracious and it brooked no interference. If there was collateral damage on her way to riches and fame, so be it.”"

09:50 PM Michael Liu Indeed. There is a video on YouTube analyzing her body language indicating her lying, it is interesting, but I think sort of "Monday Morning Quarterback"

Mon, 03/04/2019

04:57 PM Michael Liu About the dinner discussion, it seemed I had a little argument with Luis, and I am not quite sure what the point of our argument was about. I guess Luis's point was thoese venture capitalists are supposed to be very professional before they decide to put money on an investment. Why were they so foolish and deceived by Elizabeth? Luis, do u mind elaborating on your point?

06:22 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 道理很簡單啊~又不是一般投資客,怎會把大錢拿去投資自己不懂的項目?不是笨就是有問題囉…你不也說創投有產業專長,醫療的沒一個投資這壞血公司,那不懂醫療的怎還那麼有勇氣?所以是笨還是有問題?

08:39 PM Kooper Not in English?

08:51 PM Michael Liu It is not a simple matter of stupidity. Rather, it is a matter of FIFO. Fear of Missing Out.

08:54 PM Michael Liu So, you are implying those VC investors were colluded with Elizabeth? ( Just as they say Trump colluded with Russia? )

09:03 PM Michael Liu Kooper, are you also reading the book?

09:06 PM Iris Wu "Haha! Kooper is tough!

Luis was right about the venture capitalists not doing their due diligence in this scandal. So the penalty/punishment for Holmes should be little on fooling the investors, rather the prosecution will be more on intentional harm/negligence (to public health/wellbeing).

Michael's point, FOMO (Fear of Missing Out), was one of the main reasons that these venture capitalists did not do their due diligence, I think. "

09:11 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Fomo that's what I don't agree.. 用英文怕說不清楚說我 XD

09:11 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Anyway

09:11 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Lo

09:16 PM Iris Wu FOMO is a very "real mentality". If you are in Silicon Valley, you can feel it easily in the people around you.

09:16 PM You unsent a message.

09:17 PM Iris Wu Not to mention those who try to catch the train that they think missed.

09:20 PM Michael Liu Luis, please elaborate on why you don't agree with the theory of FOMO. (用中文也OK啦)

09:23 PM Iris Wu (...catch the train that they think they missed.)

09:30 PM Michael Liu By the way, today I saw a very very good point online. If Holmes were a young boy instead of a girl, would that Stanford 工學院院長 and 舒茲 so believe in her and fascinated by her? Probably not, because the industry was desperate to see a female legend as Steve Jobs.

11:20 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 I would just say you guys are too naive.. XD

11:21 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Anyway, it's anybody's guess lo~

11:38 PM Michael Liu OK, I admit I am naive, but you have to tell us we are naive in what part and in what way. I guess your point is thoese VC investors may feel fishy about the company , but they don't care, all they want is they can cash in and make profit before the fraud is exposed. Unfortunately, it is exposed too soon. Am I right?

Tue, 03/05/2019

02:10 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Ah~sorry to say that, but I also said it's anbody's guess so, It's fomo if you think it is lo~ Don't bother to know what a sceptic thinks.. XD

03:42 PM Iris Wu "I guess maybe we shouldn’t put all her investors in the same bucket.

Her first investor, Tim Draper continues to support her publicly. Draper is the father of her childhood friend, Jesse. Is the support more like a”friend/family bond”?

For drugstore, Walgreen, it’s clearly the FOMO. They wanted the results/the products. They did not invest for speculation. Safeway, the supermarket chain stores yearning to expand to healthcare services, needed the promising killer products, too.

Other V.C.’s might be skeptical. Some of them might be purely for “quick return”, for speculation. But I don’t know how many of them pulled out before it fell? "

04:18 PM Michael Liu Why does Tim Draper still defend for her? I think the reason is, as David Jr. pointed out in the dinner, these people have believed in Holmes for such a long time. It would be emotionally painful to admit they are wrong. This phenomenon happens in scam victim very often.

05:56 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Absolutely! I did sort of mentioned that too.

Wed, 03/06/2019

04:00 AM Michael Liu Below is a latest writing about Theranos for your reference

04:00 AM Michael Liu ... deception/

07:50 AM Iris Wu "Interesting viewpoints!

I thought patent is to protect “ideas”, but to what degree or how feasible the ideas need to be are good questions to study further. I think it’s not easy to set the line.

We have quite a few members working in this field, maybe they understand more about the industry practices. "

01:30 PM Sherry "Embodiment is a requirement in most territories and the statutory language is quite similar, like the enablement of the US (35 U.S.C. §112), the sufficiency of disclosure of the EPO (Article 83), and 可據以實現 of Taiwan (專利法第26條).

But just as the article said, it is very difficult for patent examiners to verify whether a patent application can be ""carried out"" during prosecution. In practice it may rely on third-party submission against patentability (when the application is still pending), IPR and PGR for invalidity (after granted), and litigation."

01:36 PM Sherry And I agree with Iris, there is no clear line between when a patent application or a patent contains sufficient information to be carried out by a person skilled in the art and when they do not. Attorneys usually suggest the disclosure would be the more the better

05:29 PM Michael Liu Below is another recent article about Holmes. She is engaged with a 小開 now. 標題的"She never looks back" 是什麼意思呢?我不太確定

05:29 PM Michael Liu ... eranos/amp

06:43 PM christine Hi Rock, pls check the message I left to you. Tks.

11:19 PM Iris Wu Wow! How professional! I don't know any of those TLAs (Three Letter Abbreviations)! (moon laugh)

11:33 PM Iris Wu "Third-party submission against patentability" sounds like IV&V in software industry? We used to have IV&V (Independent Verification and Validation) to verify and validate software delivery, especially major software system, like Navy or other DoD projects. Not sure how third-party submission works in patent industry?

11:37 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 An indemnity agreement and nearly a dozen law firms on retainer.. From the last article Michael posted. I don't know if it's a common thing, still, that's really very interesting I would say!

Thu, 03/07/2019

12:57 AM Michael Liu Luis, why is it "interesting"? I don't quite get it. Please enlighten me. Thanks

07:20 AM Iris Wu “Never looks back” is like “never regret”, for Holmes’ case, probably even implies she “never reflects on the past and she never bothers to regret or think what went wrong”, and as said in the article, “ She is far from a hermit”. She continues “twisting facts to fit her own imagination boldly without any remorse”, in my opinion.

08:46 AM Iris Wu "Is it common? I am not sure, but Mr. Trump probably got a few! :)
Michael Cohen’s testimony to Congress is good to watch. He said he had covered up for Trump for over 10 years. I thought the arguments on both aisles were interesting. Republicans demolished Cohen’s credibility saying he had been lying and convicted for that, how should people trust him?
Democrats said they (Republicans) were on your side when you lied, now you stop lying for the president, then they are upset!

Sorry, I got carried away again.
We were talking about having a slew of lawyers on retainer... :)"

09:47 AM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 And, an indemnity agreement says the company covers all their legal bills, if unconditionally? She is not hired, but also the founder! Ok, again, guess it's my personal preference.. XD

02:43 PM Michael Liu Luis, Sorry for my stupidity. 我真的不太懂你上面這些話是要表達什麼意思

02:52 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 其實我的思緒也有點混,或許是我懷疑太多了 XD

03:39 PM Michael Liu Iris, I watched the testimony too. But the full testimony is about 6 hours long. I didn't watch all of it. Did you ?

08:34 PM Iris Wu "Michael, I’ve watched part 1 & 2 on YouTube, more than 4 hours, I think.
But don’t get me wrong, I don’t watch this kind of stuff all the time. :)"

08:51 PM Michael Liu Haha, come on, it is official congressional testimony. Worthy to watch

Fri, 03/08/2019

02:31 AM Michael Liu By the way, 那篇文章的標題"She never looks back", 是指Holmes 做事只往前看,從不往後看的意思嗎?

08:05 AM Iris Wu "字面的意思很單純,沒錯啊!
“一昧的往前”, 從不回顧省思 就 implies judgment. "

08:38 AM Michael Liu Ok, thanks, in the below video, it is funny and strange that the CNN male host has something on his forehead. Any idea what it is?

08:38 AM Michael Liu ... -politics/

03:29 PM 林子軒 (Devry Lin) "3/6 is Ash Wednesday, it marks the start of Lent. The mark on the host's forehead is a spreading of ash as a sign of repentance, this tradition is done by many sects of Christianity."

05:29 PM Michael Liu Wow.....Thanks, Devry

08:53 PM Michael Liu Devry, I am curious how you found out the answer

10:59 PM Michael Liu [Notes] Insightful comments about "bad blood" form a finance professional:


Sat, 03/09/2019

07:40 AM Iris Wu [Sticker]

08:55 AM 林子軒 (Devry Lin) this video is up in Youtube too, one of the commenter says that it is unprofessional for the host to display his religion like that, and the mark looked like a cross, that's how I started my search

03:04 PM Michael Liu I see, thanks

Sun, 03/10/2019

11:07 PM Iris Wu "How is the reading coming along?
I ran into Tim the other day and he said he was halfway to the end of “Bad Blood”. Nice to know that! :) "

11:07 PM Iris Wu "Thanks for Michael’s sharing about the comments from a finance professional!

Do you know why he/she made the first comment - The business world is run by nepotism and favoritism or through noble blood? What facts support his/her first argument? "

11:54 PM Michael Liu I think because Holmes' father was a former Enron executive, so her family must have had many connections. Also, her grandpa ran a big business? As mentioned in the book?

11:57 PM Michael Liu But if, Iris, you are asking the business in general, then there are many examples in Taiwan, we have a lot of 財團 , which are family business, therefore, nepotism as it is
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 628
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: BR2019-1:Bad Blood (Secrets and Lies in a Startup)

文章Iris Wu » 週六 4月 06, 2019 9:30 am

Mon, 03/11/2019

08:39 AM Iris Wu You paid attention to details, Michael! I was asking about the case of Elizabeth Holmes. Yes, even her family has gone downhill, the “noble inner circle” might still have its effect.

10:36 AM Michael Liu 過獎,Actually, I forgot most of details mentioned in the book, because we are reading it in English, which makes us hard to remember it. Anyway, I think another connection Holmes got is from the first big shot believer of her- the superstar Stanford professor, who also must have many connections. And then, the second powerful believer, Secretary of State Schulz.

10:39 AM Michael Liu I don't remember how and where she met Schulz, though, and don't remember if this is mentioned in the book.

02:08 PM christine I'll try to catch up the reading

06:27 PM Michael Liu

10:02 PM Iris Wu Since you hosted the meeting on the Theranos scandal, you know well about the story! It would be nice that you can tell us if the book offers you different perspectives on the whole event. No rush. Take your time!

Tue, 03/12/2019

06:19 AM christine [Sticker]

10:42 PM Michael Liu The director of Theranos documentary calls Elizabeth Holmes 'delusional'. I agree and I think she has some mental problems. She cannot tell the difference between delusion and reality.

Wed, 03/13/2019

05:58 PM christine I haven't finished the reading yet. However, I feel Elizabeth was affected by Sunny a lot. Perhaps, she wants to fulfill her "dream" so badly, she was then convinced all the decisions or acts she had to take are just a part of process to reach the "achievement". So, she probably said to her employees and herself million times that she is not afraid of any problem.....

06:04 PM christine In fact, they have a lot of chances to make things right, but didn't. Looks like they were cheating people for a long time. Sometimes, I even feel Elizabeth is so" Naive" to belive that she won't get caught by crossing so many lines.

06:12 PM Michael Liu In normal people's eyes like us, yeah, we think how come she didn't expect she would get caught. But, in thoese sociopath's mind like Elizabeth, their brain functions differently than ours. That is why we 想不透 why they can be so "naive"

06:15 PM Michael Liu As for their brain functions how differently than ours. It can be our next book for exploring. I read one before in Chinese version. I would love to read one more time in English

08:43 PM Michael Liu Iris, I just found out that in dictionaries, there is only "unconscionable", and no "conscionable". Interesting

Thu, 03/14/2019

12:23 AM Iris Wu But I saw it in Meriam-Webster, Collins, and Free Dictionary, etc. It seems it’s only missing in Cambridge?

12:44 AM Iris Wu "I don’t know much about psychology. Not sure how do people with “delusional disorder” mental issue behave? If she could not tell delusion from reality, how could she know what to hide/cheat and what not to?

I do agree that she and Sunny were a “perfect pair”. They seemed to strengthen each other’s “delusional beliefs”? "

06:32 AM christine How likely would the term "delusional disorder" being misused?

06:40 AM Michael Liu Oops...Iris, you got me! I was thinking about the same question too. How could she know what to hide if she was "delusional"

06:59 AM Iris Wu Yeah, the court will need psychology professionals to determine their mental state.

Mon, 03/18/2019

08:11 PM Michael Liu The Oscar-winning director presents a sympathetic portrait of the Silicon Valley CEO who fooled the world into believing she had built a better blood test. (Wow! "sympathetic"! Interesting...can't wait to watch it)

08:11 PM Michael Liu I mean this documentary on HBO

08:38 PM Iris Wu "Yes, “The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley”, right?
I love the title!!! They are so good at making such kind of title! "

08:48 PM Michael Liu Yeah, 台灣播映時間恐怕還要等很久,I will try to download it on Internet

08:55 PM Michael Liu and, yeah, they are really good at making "pun" titles

Tue, 03/19/2019

02:10 PM Michael Liu @品宜Alice Hi, Alice, I sent you a private message about hosting a meeting on Saturday in June. Please kindly take a look. Thanks

07:10 PM 品宜Alice @Michael Liu Hi Michael(emoji) please can you send me the message again, I just added you which might why i didn't see your message, thanks (Thanks)

07:11 PM Michael Liu Ok, sent

10:39 PM Iris Wu "One question, if you were a boss or a hiring manager in Silicon Valley (or anywhere in the world), would you hire an ex-employee from Theranos? How about those who were in the inner circle of Holmes and Sunny Balwani?

In reality, do you know if these people had any hard time finding a new job?"

11:00 PM 品宜Alice

11:08 PM 品宜Alice This is intriguing too from psychology-wised point, like Michael and Iris was discussing, I read an article in Mandarin though, also mentioned she is likely to be sociopath

11:34 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 ... h%2Fx%2Fim

11:35 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 courtesy of David lo~

11:56 PM Tim Lo "There is a news about the ex-employees. Their future is not so bright... ... index.html"

Wed, 03/20/2019

12:07 AM Michael Liu Yeah, I read that news too

05:47 AM Michael Liu I finished watching the HBO documentary with English subtitle. The film does lay out the story as "sympathetic" with Elizabeth, but the rest of the film is full of many objective interviews.

05:53 AM Michael Liu After watching the film, I am more convinced that she is a psychopath (also known as sociopath) as Luis posted. I plan to host a topic about sociopath in one of our Saturday meetings in June.

07:19 AM Iris Wu Thanks, Alice, Luis, David and Michael, for delving deep into the sophisticated psychological path to understand this case! I think we can all learn from the further discussion on psychopath/socisociopath personality and behavior patterns.

07:29 AM You unsent a message.

07:33 AM Iris Wu "Thanks, Tim! Yes, I remember somewhere I read about this fact, Theranos ex-employess getting questioned about their ethics or judgments in their job searching.
But when I was watching an interview of Tyler Shultz and Erica Cheung, the two young whistleblowers, and they gave different stories. Elizabeth's brother and his college friends who worked as high level administration in Theranos seemed effortlessly landing their new positions. I was troubled by that, so I asked the question."

07:42 AM Iris Wu There are plenty articles, videos online for this subject, I really don't need to add another one, but... just for people who don't have time for the whole book of interviews, investigative processes and want something more direct and firsthand, here is a "long talk" by Tyler Shultz (Stanford) and Erika Cheung (UC Berkeley) at "Stanford McCoy Family Center for Ethics in Society":

07:44 AM Iris Wu The two young people think clearly and talk straightforward, especially Erika Cheung (she seems so cool. It’s hard to find an Engineering-major Asian kid so clearheaded and with good communication skills. Through some parts of Q&A, you can understand how they were bought into Holmes’ vision initially and how Elizabeth easily swayed them in her 5-minute inspiring speech when they got frustrated in the early stage.

07:52 AM Michael Liu Yeah, and as mentioned in the book. She even convinced all board members not to fire her in just two hours. Remember?

07:56 AM Iris Wu Yes, amazingly! :)

07:57 AM Michael Liu "spilling the blood". Haha, another good pun title

08:00 AM Iris Wu (yup!) (smiley face)

08:01 AM christine Yes, I remember that. I am so curious about how she convinced them

08:04 AM Iris Wu Another reason to watch Tyler and Erica's interview is that it's good to see the positive side of human beings or people in the Valley! :)

08:05 AM Michael Liu About Erika's good communication skill, maybe because she was born and grew up in the US, instead of 留學生?

08:08 AM Iris Wu Sure, but usually even the first generation who was born there may still be influenced by the family culture. I don't know how long her family has settled down there.

08:09 AM Michael Liu Right, so I believe her father is a white man

08:10 AM Michael Liu She has a mixed blood face

08:11 AM Michael Liu Sorry, I am being a racist

08:15 AM Michael Liu It is a pity this video doesn't have English subtitle. 聽力大考驗了.....

08:19 AM Iris Wu Oh, Sorry! It's a long one, anyway, maybe just pick some sections? We know the stories, so should be much easier! (dog with tongue out)

09:20 AM Michael Liu Erika indeed has super good communication skills. Articulate, good command of intonation, proper gesture, eye contact with the audience....etc.

09:34 AM Iris Wu Good to know you feel likewise. I think she came from a good family. I remember she said she had a doubt when she decided to quit; she called her father and cried... It sounds that she had strong support from her father. I wonder if I had been the parent, what advice I would have given to her? Would I tell her to trust her gut feeling or ask her to stay and fulfill her role in the company?

09:45 AM Michael Liu I think I would tell my daughter to trust herself. Of course, it is easy for me to say that

09:47 AM Michael Liu On second thought, given the fact of those big shot board members. I might not

09:50 AM Iris Wu Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, but to be clearheaded all the time... I doubt myself...

09:53 AM Michael Liu BTW, Iris, I have heard they say they drink "kool-aid" many times. What does that imply?

10:09 AM 林子軒 (Devry Lin) "I think this is the phrase you are looking for..."

10:22 AM Michael Liu Wow, thanks, Devry, I didn't expect it was an expression. I thought they literally meant they drink that brand of drink. Haha

10:31 AM Michael Liu To be frank, Iris, I don't have any doubt you would not tell your child to believe in themselves. On top of the fact that you are a person of integrity, since the scenario here is your child would be working at the front line of the company, as Erika did, I have no doubt you would believe your child's judgement is based on facts

12:33 PM Iris Wu " Thanks, Devry!
It’s great to have you in the group!

I am definitely not a role model for moms. My son did drink quite a lot Kool-Aid after ball games when he was little! :)"

Thu, 03/21/2019

11:08 AM ShuliFelicidad [Sticker]

11:15 AM Michael Liu unsent a message.

Fri, 03/22/2019

01:44 PM Kat Iris, I loved the Stanford talk too! It’s very inspiring to not only hear from John Carreyrou, who single-handedly started the investigation that had cracked open one of the biggest scams ever, but also two of those actually from inside Theranos and had arguably risked just as much as he did - by coming out and providing him with critical collaborative information. The talk was fun too: the case has been so sensational precisely because it’s full of human drama.

01:48 PM Michael Liu I am impressed with Tyler saying in Q&A session that he never doubted he was right about it.

02:53 PM Kat Yes. These two really have a good head on their shoulders. (two thumbs up)

03:26 PM You unsent a message.

03:28 PM Iris Wu "Yes, Tyler’s parents spent half a million legal fee just because he talked to WSJ.
Erika Cheung was followed in the late evening, receiving warnings, threats, etc. It’s hard to comprehend what they had been through! They were just out of college at the time!

I finished the HBO documentary this morning. The film was more from Elizabeth’s angle, maybe they just didn’t want to repeat what we’ve already learned from the book?

In the film, you see the company, the employees, the labs and the machines. You do get more of the sense that she was trying to do something, but the truth is the execution was a mess! "

04:54 PM Iris Wu "I have been wondering what are the differences between Elizabeth Holmes and those who inspired her (such as Thomas Edison, Steve Jobs, etc.)?

Why “Fake it until you make it” worked for others, but not Elizabeth Holmes? "

05:05 PM christine Iris, do you think she'd have had a better chance to realize her dream if she really put some efforts on products and take the advice from some experts or employees ? Perhaps there's better chance of "Fake it until you make it " become workable ??

06:27 PM Iris Wu "Yeah, who she trusted and how she managed the processes made differences.

There is no doubt that she worked very hard, but do you think if she had been more focused on the products, then she could have made it?

Medical equipments are different from software applications. Was she qualified to be an Inventor? Was the vision feasible? Did she have the management skills to oversee the whole processes?
These people all had their strong egos. It would be interesting to know the differences between their execution skills. "

06:29 PM Holly王禾樂 @christine I think you made a great point. I haven't finished the book yet ( just half way) but it makes me really uncomfortable when she knew the product was not working properly. Especially this mini-lab is for detecting disease/ cancers, people should take it really seriously.

07:24 PM christine Thanks Holly. She did not put efforts to fix the issues on product perspective but just trying hard to hide and lie all the time.

07:45 PM Michael Liu Iris, although Edison also lied many times when he tried to make light bulb work, as the HBO documentary indicated, the big difference between him and Elizabeth is making a light bulb does not put people's lives at risk, in my humble opinion.

09:32 PM Iris Wu "@Michael Liu I agreed. That’s the major difference between a medical device and a “nice-to-have” app or an iPod/iPad.

For each case of “Fake it until you make it”, we should probably judge it in the context of its impacts. "

11:39 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Just like there's no one-size-fits-all things, I doubt "fake it until you make it" can apply to everything. As to the difference between Elisabeth and those who inspired her, other than lives involved I guess the main difference is, their intentions apart, the products themselvesself. If one can cheat on the result of their end product, especially those not directly used by end users, they will probably hide their failure once they can't make it after spending so much money, I would say.

Sat, 03/23/2019

12:41 AM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 left the group.

01:41 AM Iris Wu "Oh, just saw Luis’ comments and was going to reply...

Yeah, on personal level, sometimes we see it (fake it till make it) as a trait and encourage people to practice it, don’t we?

As far as whether she took her products seriously or if she made effort to fix things, I think it’s a complicated question.

There is debate topic, “Silicon Valley has lost its soul”. Will you be for or against the motion/proposition?
(Same as Michael, i am thinking to make it one of my 4/30 meeting topics. :)"

Thu, 03/28/2019

09:30 AM Iris Wu "Hi, “Bad Blood” Readers: How is your progress of the book reading?

We started it around end of February and planned to finish in two months. If you are about halfway through the book or more than that, then you are in good shape. Since we’ve discussed quite a lot on LINE, shall we just meet at the end of April for a formal closing session?"

09:31 AM Iris Wu Sometimes I feel if there is no “legacy” left by Holmes & her partner, one thing is definitely valuable for many of Silicon Valley dreamers, and that is the “lessons learned”.

09:32 AM Iris Wu "One of UC Berkeley Master of Engineering professors led a case study on Theranos’ corporate culture.
“The students discussed several prominent aspects of Therano’s corporate culture that turned the company from a beautiful vision to an ugly lie.” ... 836515c139 (Case study: Lessons learned from Theranos’ corporate culture)

Personally, I think it is a good reference. What are your thoughts?"

10:28 AM Stephen Chiu A formal closing session would be nice!

11:08 AM Stray Sabrina [Sticker]

11:13 AM Iris Wu "Sure. We will have one.

Just a quick survey.
Which day works better? 4/27(Sat) or 4/30 (Tue)?"

11:18 AM Stephen Chiu I vote for 4/27.

11:19 AM christine I vote for 4/27 too

11:22 AM Iris Wu [Poll] Date for “Bad Blood” Closing S...

11:26 AM Iris Wu "Thanks, Stephen & Christine!
I just learned how to create a poll, so... :)"

01:26 PM Sherry Hi, Iris, are you going to host a yoyo meeting on 4/30? If so, just wanted to know if the meeting topic will be related to this book or a different one?

01:34 PM Iris Wu "It will be a different one. I think we’ve had too much “bad” blood, need some good/fresh one! :)

In fact, Christine has already had one on Theranos not long ago. I’d better find something else."

01:49 PM Iris Wu Since you asked, I am reading “The Thucydides Trap”, so I think my topic will be something related to that, but maybe too dry... The book itself is not too bad.

01:59 PM Sherry Haha. I see. Thanks!

05:37 PM Sherry "Hi, Iris, is this the book you are reading?
Destined for War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides's Trap?"

06:08 PM Iris Wu "Yup! :)

The title “Thucydides’s Trap” got my attention. I think I watched the author’s TED Talk first.

The book has more detailed analysis on the history of conflicts between a rising power and a ruling power. It sounds common sense, but those “inevitable wars” really serve as good reminders for us at a crossroads. "

06:19 PM Iris Wu "But I don’t mean to recommend this book for the group and I don’t plan to use the book for my meeting topic.
I will use a website, Intelligence Square (IQ2) for my meeting on 4/30, maybe something like this one: ... -war-china"

Fri, 03/29/2019

08:10 AM Sherry [Sticker]

08:44 AM christine [Sticker]

09:32 AM Iris Wu I hope I did not make us losing focus. We can continue our discussion on Theranos. :)

09:32 AM Iris Wu "The “Lessons Learned” case study has some good points: How did these beautiful visions turn into ugly lies?
• First, Theranos was very competitive internally.
• Second, Theranos was set on an ambitious stretch goal — making a device that can run 70 blood tests on only a 25–30 microliters blood sample.
• Third, Theranos also strongly emphasized a shared and unified vision.
• But the most important aspect of Theranos’ culture that led to its downfall is its centralized command."

09:33 AM Iris Wu For each of these bullet points, does your company have similar situation? How could they be managed to avoid its pitfalls?
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 628
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: BR2019-1:Bad Blood (Secrets and Lies in a Startup)

文章Iris Wu » 週六 4月 06, 2019 9:31 am

Mon, 04/01/2019

11:30 AM Iris Wu [Poll closed] Date for “Bad Blood” Cl...

03:38 PM Iris Wu "Thank you!
We will have a closing discussion on Saturday, 4/27/19."

03:38 PM Iris Wu Today, I saw this new "invention" done by NTU researcher team: ... hcare.aspx

03:40 PM Iris Wu Or Chinese version: 台大研究全球首例 指尖陀螺可分離血清

03:40 PM You unsent a message.

03:44 PM Iris Wu I wonder if this could have made Theranos' work much easier? :)

04:07 PM Michael Liu [Sticker]

Tue, 04/02/2019

12:45 PM Iris Wu ... ans-2019-3

12:45 PM Iris Wu I don't blame you for thinking I am being paranoid, because I know this is like tabloid news to pass along. :)

12:47 PM Iris Wu Elizabeth Holmes is "amazing"! She could get a partner 20 years older when she was 19 and another one 8 years younger when she is 35 and faces indictment with fraud and criminal charges.

01:10 PM Michael Liu In terms of fraud and scam, Elizabeth Holmes is "百年難得一見的奇才" !

01:17 PM Iris Wu [Sticker]

01:38 PM Michael Liu Ahh....Now I know why they are a couple. Her fiance has one thing in common with her => "While at MIT, Evans studied abroad in China on a full scholarship. He studied Chinese language and literature at Fudan University in Shanghai."

01:44 PM Iris Wu Yeah, I saw that and I remember she and her ex (Sunny) met in Beijing during her summer Mandarin learning program, too. :)

Wed, 04/03/2019

04:44 PM Michael Liu unsent a message.

04:46 PM Michael Liu I watched a true event movie yesterday which also involves conscionable journalists and whistleblowers. "Shock and Awe" is about war of Iraq and Mass Destruction Weapons that never exist while the US government claimed it does.

04:51 PM Michael Liu All US mainstream media is fooled by the government, except the one depicted in the movie, which is trying hard to seek truth. Very inspiring as "Bad Blood" story. So I recommend it to you guys.

04:54 PM Michael Liu @Tim Lo if you haven't watched this movie, I believe you would love it

06:22 PM Iris Wu "Thanks, Michael!
I’ll check it out! "

06:35 PM Tim Lo Thanks! Looks like a cool movie

Thu, 04/04/2019

08:02 AM Iris Wu "I wrote to Michael last night (or technically, 2:00am this morning :)

“Just finished the ‘Shock and Awe’. So heavy...but it says a lot how I have been feeling about Cheney and Rumsfeld! They should be held accountable. Bush was just like a puppet!”

“Being truthful” isn’t a simple task for a journalist or anybody, especially when you are against the majority! “雖千萬人吾往矣!” doesn’t happen often!

Fighting with big corporations and powerful politicians and trying to dig out the truth are certainly something similar for journalists in both cases (Theranos & Iraq war)."

09:04 AM You unsent a message.

09:05 AM Iris Wu "But the consequences are quite different in both cases. One could stop the scandal before it went too far (or before it cost a human life); the other one was actually a huge disaster, isn't it? It cost countless lives, not to mention the resources, the stability of a region and the long-term hatred/anger/hostility.
Sure, people will say, “Stupid! It’s all about the oil!” Fossil fuels? The equation in the balance sheet remains to be elucidated, but to me, the cause can never be justified."

11:04 AM Iris Wu I mean the other one was not successfully served as a wake-up call. It only became 20/20 hindsight. And the most depressing result is that Holmes still needs to face the indictment, but those politicians could get away from their misconducts!

03:45 PM Michael Liu Yeah, just as we Chinese have a saying "竊鉤者誅 竊國者侯"
Iris Wu
YOYO member
文章: 628
註冊時間: 週二 5月 20, 2014 4:33 pm

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