08:39 AM Iris Wu You paid attention to details, Michael! I was asking about the case of Elizabeth Holmes. Yes, even her family has gone downhill, the “noble inner circle” might still have its effect.
10:36 AM Michael Liu 過獎，Actually, I forgot most of details mentioned in the book, because we are reading it in English, which makes us hard to remember it. Anyway, I think another connection Holmes got is from the first big shot believer of her- the superstar Stanford professor, who also must have many connections. And then, the second powerful believer, Secretary of State Schulz.
10:39 AM Michael Liu I don't remember how and where she met Schulz, though, and don't remember if this is mentioned in the book.
02:08 PM christine I'll try to catch up the reading
06:27 PM Michael Liu
10:02 PM Iris Wu Since you hosted the meeting on the Theranos scandal, you know well about the story! It would be nice that you can tell us if the book offers you different perspectives on the whole event. No rush. Take your time!
06:19 AM christine [Sticker]
10:42 PM Michael Liu The director of Theranos documentary calls Elizabeth Holmes 'delusional'. I agree and I think she has some mental problems. She cannot tell the difference between delusion and reality.
05:58 PM christine I haven't finished the reading yet. However, I feel Elizabeth was affected by Sunny a lot. Perhaps, she wants to fulfill her "dream" so badly, she was then convinced all the decisions or acts she had to take are just a part of process to reach the "achievement". So, she probably said to her employees and herself million times that she is not afraid of any problem.....
06:04 PM christine In fact, they have a lot of chances to make things right, but didn't. Looks like they were cheating people for a long time. Sometimes, I even feel Elizabeth is so" Naive" to belive that she won't get caught by crossing so many lines.
06:12 PM Michael Liu In normal people's eyes like us, yeah, we think how come she didn't expect she would get caught. But, in thoese sociopath's mind like Elizabeth, their brain functions differently than ours. That is why we 想不透 why they can be so "naive"
06:15 PM Michael Liu As for their brain functions how differently than ours. It can be our next book for exploring. I read one before in Chinese version. I would love to read one more time in English
08:43 PM Michael Liu Iris, I just found out that in dictionaries, there is only "unconscionable", and no "conscionable". Interesting
12:23 AM Iris Wu But I saw it in Meriam-Webster, Collins, Dictionary.com and Free Dictionary, etc. It seems it’s only missing in Cambridge?
12:44 AM Iris Wu "I don’t know much about psychology. Not sure how do people with “delusional disorder” mental issue behave? If she could not tell delusion from reality, how could she know what to hide/cheat and what not to?
I do agree that she and Sunny were a “perfect pair”. They seemed to strengthen each other’s “delusional beliefs”? "
06:32 AM christine How likely would the term "delusional disorder" being misused?
06:40 AM Michael Liu Oops...Iris, you got me! I was thinking about the same question too. How could she know what to hide if she was "delusional"
06:59 AM Iris Wu Yeah, the court will need psychology professionals to determine their mental state.
08:11 PM Michael Liu The Oscar-winning director presents a sympathetic portrait of the Silicon Valley CEO who fooled the world into believing she had built a better blood test. (Wow! "sympathetic"! Interesting...can't wait to watch it)
08:11 PM Michael Liu I mean this documentary on HBO
08:38 PM Iris Wu "Yes, “The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley”, right？
I love the title!!! They are so good at making such kind of title! "
08:48 PM Michael Liu Yeah, 台灣播映時間恐怕還要等很久，I will try to download it on Internet
08:55 PM Michael Liu and, yeah, they are really good at making "pun" titles
02:10 PM Michael Liu @品宜Alice Hi, Alice, I sent you a private message about hosting a meeting on Saturday in June. Please kindly take a look. Thanks
07:10 PM 品宜Alice @Michael Liu Hi Michael(emoji) please can you send me the message again, I just added you which might why i didn't see your message, thanks (Thanks)
07:11 PM Michael Liu Ok, sent
10:39 PM Iris Wu "One question, if you were a boss or a hiring manager in Silicon Valley (or anywhere in the world), would you hire an ex-employee from Theranos? How about those who were in the inner circle of Holmes and Sunny Balwani?
In reality, do you know if these people had any hard time finding a new job?"
11:00 PM 品宜Alice https://youtu.be/Hg4ws1QPeNE
11:08 PM 品宜Alice This is intriguing too from psychology-wised point, like Michael and Iris was discussing, I read an article in Mandarin though, also mentioned she is likely to be sociopath
11:34 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... h%2Fx%2Fim
11:35 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 courtesy of David lo~
11:56 PM Tim Lo "There is a news about the ex-employees. Their future is not so bright...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/14/tech/the ... index.html
12:07 AM Michael Liu Yeah, I read that news too
05:47 AM Michael Liu I finished watching the HBO documentary with English subtitle. The film does lay out the story as "sympathetic" with Elizabeth, but the rest of the film is full of many objective interviews.
05:53 AM Michael Liu After watching the film, I am more convinced that she is a psychopath (also known as sociopath) as Luis posted. I plan to host a topic about sociopath in one of our Saturday meetings in June.
07:19 AM Iris Wu Thanks, Alice, Luis, David and Michael, for delving deep into the sophisticated psychological path to understand this case! I think we can all learn from the further discussion on psychopath/socisociopath personality and behavior patterns.
07:29 AM You unsent a message.
07:33 AM Iris Wu "Thanks, Tim! Yes, I remember somewhere I read about this fact, Theranos ex-employess getting questioned about their ethics or judgments in their job searching.
But when I was watching an interview of Tyler Shultz and Erica Cheung, the two young whistleblowers, and they gave different stories. Elizabeth's brother and his college friends who worked as high level administration in Theranos seemed effortlessly landing their new positions. I was troubled by that, so I asked the question."
07:42 AM Iris Wu There are plenty articles, videos online for this subject, I really don't need to add another one, but... just for people who don't have time for the whole book of interviews, investigative processes and want something more direct and firsthand, here is a "long talk" by Tyler Shultz (Stanford) and Erika Cheung (UC Berkeley) at "Stanford McCoy Family Center for Ethics in Society": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJx-cU9CKLI
07:44 AM Iris Wu The two young people think clearly and talk straightforward, especially Erika Cheung (she seems so cool. It’s hard to find an Engineering-major Asian kid so clearheaded and with good communication skills. Through some parts of Q&A, you can understand how they were bought into Holmes’ vision initially and how Elizabeth easily swayed them in her 5-minute inspiring speech when they got frustrated in the early stage.
07:52 AM Michael Liu Yeah, and as mentioned in the book. She even convinced all board members not to fire her in just two hours. Remember?
07:56 AM Iris Wu Yes, amazingly!
07:57 AM Michael Liu "spilling the blood". Haha, another good pun title
08:00 AM Iris Wu (yup!) (smiley face)
08:01 AM christine Yes, I remember that. I am so curious about how she convinced them
08:04 AM Iris Wu Another reason to watch Tyler and Erica's interview is that it's good to see the positive side of human beings or people in the Valley!
08:05 AM Michael Liu About Erika's good communication skill, maybe because she was born and grew up in the US, instead of 留學生?
08:08 AM Iris Wu Sure, but usually even the first generation who was born there may still be influenced by the family culture. I don't know how long her family has settled down there.
08:09 AM Michael Liu Right, so I believe her father is a white man
08:10 AM Michael Liu She has a mixed blood face
08:11 AM Michael Liu Sorry, I am being a racist
08:15 AM Michael Liu It is a pity this video doesn't have English subtitle. 聽力大考驗了.....
08:19 AM Iris Wu Oh, Sorry! It's a long one, anyway, maybe just pick some sections? We know the stories, so should be much easier! (dog with tongue out)
09:20 AM Michael Liu Erika indeed has super good communication skills. Articulate, good command of intonation, proper gesture, eye contact with the audience....etc.
09:34 AM Iris Wu Good to know you feel likewise. I think she came from a good family. I remember she said she had a doubt when she decided to quit; she called her father and cried... It sounds that she had strong support from her father. I wonder if I had been the parent, what advice I would have given to her? Would I tell her to trust her gut feeling or ask her to stay and fulfill her role in the company?
09:45 AM Michael Liu I think I would tell my daughter to trust herself. Of course, it is easy for me to say that
09:47 AM Michael Liu On second thought, given the fact of those big shot board members. I might not
09:50 AM Iris Wu Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, but to be clearheaded all the time... I doubt myself...
09:53 AM Michael Liu BTW, Iris, I have heard they say they drink "kool-aid" many times. What does that imply?
10:09 AM 林子軒 (Devry Lin) "I think this is the phrase you are looking for...
10:22 AM Michael Liu Wow, thanks, Devry, I didn't expect it was an expression. I thought they literally meant they drink that brand of drink. Haha
10:31 AM Michael Liu To be frank, Iris, I don't have any doubt you would not tell your child to believe in themselves. On top of the fact that you are a person of integrity, since the scenario here is your child would be working at the front line of the company, as Erika did, I have no doubt you would believe your child's judgement is based on facts
12:33 PM Iris Wu " Thanks, Devry!
It’s great to have you in the group!
I am definitely not a role model for moms. My son did drink quite a lot Kool-Aid after ball games when he was little!
11:08 AM ShuliFelicidad [Sticker]
11:15 AM Michael Liu unsent a message.
01:44 PM Kat Iris, I loved the Stanford talk too! It’s very inspiring to not only hear from John Carreyrou, who single-handedly started the investigation that had cracked open one of the biggest scams ever, but also two of those actually from inside Theranos and had arguably risked just as much as he did - by coming out and providing him with critical collaborative information. The talk was fun too: the case has been so sensational precisely because it’s full of human drama.
01:48 PM Michael Liu I am impressed with Tyler saying in Q&A session that he never doubted he was right about it.
02:53 PM Kat Yes. These two really have a good head on their shoulders. (two thumbs up)
03:26 PM You unsent a message.
03:28 PM Iris Wu "Yes, Tyler’s parents spent half a million legal fee just because he talked to WSJ.
Erika Cheung was followed in the late evening, receiving warnings, threats, etc. It’s hard to comprehend what they had been through! They were just out of college at the time!
I finished the HBO documentary this morning. The film was more from Elizabeth’s angle, maybe they just didn’t want to repeat what we’ve already learned from the book?
In the film, you see the company, the employees, the labs and the machines. You do get more of the sense that she was trying to do something, but the truth is the execution was a mess! "
04:54 PM Iris Wu "I have been wondering what are the differences between Elizabeth Holmes and those who inspired her (such as Thomas Edison, Steve Jobs, etc.)?
Why “Fake it until you make it” worked for others, but not Elizabeth Holmes? "
05:05 PM christine Iris, do you think she'd have had a better chance to realize her dream if she really put some efforts on products and take the advice from some experts or employees ? Perhaps there's better chance of "Fake it until you make it " become workable ??
06:27 PM Iris Wu "Yeah, who she trusted and how she managed the processes made differences.
There is no doubt that she worked very hard, but do you think if she had been more focused on the products, then she could have made it?
Medical equipments are different from software applications. Was she qualified to be an Inventor? Was the vision feasible? Did she have the management skills to oversee the whole processes?
These people all had their strong egos. It would be interesting to know the differences between their execution skills. "
06:29 PM Holly王禾樂 @christine I think you made a great point. I haven't finished the book yet ( just half way) but it makes me really uncomfortable when she knew the product was not working properly. Especially this mini-lab is for detecting disease/ cancers, people should take it really seriously.
07:24 PM christine Thanks Holly. She did not put efforts to fix the issues on product perspective but just trying hard to hide and lie all the time.
07:45 PM Michael Liu Iris, although Edison also lied many times when he tried to make light bulb work, as the HBO documentary indicated, the big difference between him and Elizabeth is making a light bulb does not put people's lives at risk, in my humble opinion.
09:32 PM Iris Wu "@Michael Liu I agreed. That’s the major difference between a medical device and a “nice-to-have” app or an iPod/iPad.
For each case of “Fake it until you make it”, we should probably judge it in the context of its impacts. "
11:39 PM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 Just like there's no one-size-fits-all things, I doubt "fake it until you make it" can apply to everything. As to the difference between Elisabeth and those who inspired her, other than lives involved I guess the main difference is, their intentions apart, the products themselvesself. If one can cheat on the result of their end product, especially those not directly used by end users, they will probably hide their failure once they can't make it after spending so much money, I would say.
12:41 AM 柯錫錄 Luis, since 1969 left the group.
01:41 AM Iris Wu "Oh, just saw Luis’ comments and was going to reply...
Yeah, on personal level, sometimes we see it (fake it till make it) as a trait and encourage people to practice it, don’t we?
As far as whether she took her products seriously or if she made effort to fix things, I think it’s a complicated question.
There is debate topic, “Silicon Valley has lost its soul”. Will you be for or against the motion/proposition?
(Same as Michael, i am thinking to make it one of my 4/30 meeting topics.
09:30 AM Iris Wu "Hi, “Bad Blood” Readers: How is your progress of the book reading?
We started it around end of February and planned to finish in two months. If you are about halfway through the book or more than that, then you are in good shape. Since we’ve discussed quite a lot on LINE, shall we just meet at the end of April for a formal closing session?"
09:31 AM Iris Wu Sometimes I feel if there is no “legacy” left by Holmes & her partner, one thing is definitely valuable for many of Silicon Valley dreamers, and that is the “lessons learned”.
09:32 AM Iris Wu "One of UC Berkeley Master of Engineering professors led a case study on Theranos’ corporate culture.
“The students discussed several prominent aspects of Therano’s corporate culture that turned the company from a beautiful vision to an ugly lie.”
https://medium.com/the-coleman-fung-ins ... 836515c139
(Case study: Lessons learned from Theranos’ corporate culture)
Personally, I think it is a good reference. What are your thoughts?"
10:28 AM Stephen Chiu A formal closing session would be nice!
11:08 AM Stray Sabrina [Sticker]
11:13 AM Iris Wu "Sure. We will have one.
Just a quick survey.
Which day works better? 4/27(Sat) or 4/30 (Tue)?"
11:18 AM Stephen Chiu I vote for 4/27.
11:19 AM christine I vote for 4/27 too
11:22 AM Iris Wu [Poll] Date for “Bad Blood” Closing S...
11:26 AM Iris Wu "Thanks, Stephen & Christine!
I just learned how to create a poll, so...
01:26 PM Sherry Hi, Iris, are you going to host a yoyo meeting on 4/30? If so, just wanted to know if the meeting topic will be related to this book or a different one?
01:34 PM Iris Wu "It will be a different one. I think we’ve had too much “bad” blood, need some good/fresh one!
In fact, Christine has already had one on Theranos not long ago. I’d better find something else."
01:49 PM Iris Wu Since you asked, I am reading “The Thucydides Trap”, so I think my topic will be something related to that, but maybe too dry... The book itself is not too bad.
01:59 PM Sherry Haha. I see. Thanks!
05:37 PM Sherry "Hi, Iris, is this the book you are reading?
Destined for War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides's Trap?
06:08 PM Iris Wu "Yup!
The title “Thucydides’s Trap” got my attention. I think I watched the author’s TED Talk first.
The book has more detailed analysis on the history of conflicts between a rising power and a ruling power. It sounds common sense, but those “inevitable wars” really serve as good reminders for us at a crossroads. "
06:19 PM Iris Wu "But I don’t mean to recommend this book for the group and I don’t plan to use the book for my meeting topic.
I will use a website, Intelligence Square (IQ2) for my meeting on 4/30, maybe something like this one:
https://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/d ... -war-china
08:10 AM Sherry [Sticker]
08:44 AM christine [Sticker]
09:32 AM Iris Wu I hope I did not make us losing focus. We can continue our discussion on Theranos.
09:32 AM Iris Wu "The “Lessons Learned” case study has some good points: How did these beautiful visions turn into ugly lies?
• First, Theranos was very competitive internally.
• Second, Theranos was set on an ambitious stretch goal — making a device that can run 70 blood tests on only a 25–30 microliters blood sample.
• Third, Theranos also strongly emphasized a shared and unified vision.
• But the most important aspect of Theranos’ culture that led to its downfall is its centralized command."
09:33 AM Iris Wu For each of these bullet points, does your company have similar situation? How could they be managed to avoid its pitfalls?